G-0PEXN4B5CS Do you know any stories about Ugly Princesses? - The Brave Man Project with Hamish Niven

Episode 6

Do you know any stories about Ugly Princesses?

Published on: 29th July, 2026

Do you know any fairy tales about ugly princesses?

A 14-year-old girl in the burns unit, scarred for life, asks Kasper for a story about an ugly princess. He didn't know one. So he made one up on the spot — and kept going back for sixteen years.

  • "Stories convey more than numbers."
  • "Speak your truth, keep it real."

Kasper Sørensen is a Danish storyteller who works in hospitals, sitting with children who are seriously ill and sometimes dying. He started at eighteen, scared of thirty kids in a kindergarten, and found that a story was the only thing that worked. What began there became a vocation built on truth, presence and the willingness to stay in the room.

What we explore:

  • What storytelling actually does in a hospital ward — and why it isn't a distraction from the hard stuff
  • The girl in the burns unit, and answering a 15-year-old's question about what comes after death
  • Why truth is non-negotiable: kids know instantly when you're performing
  • What children facing death say about how to live — and how consistently they say the same thing
  • Holding it together and letting it go: what Kasper does after an afternoon in intensive care

Connect with Kasper:

A little about Hamish

I spent 25 years building a life that looked successful from the outside, but within, it was the opposite. Everything was falling apart, and I was throwing fuel on that fire. The joy of life had fallen away. Late November 2018, I had to make a choice: live or die. I chose to live, and everything changed. I had to confront the pain I was carrying, look at the stories, and change. I built The Brave Man Project because there was nothing like this when I needed it.

Podcast website https://thebravemanproject.com/

Hamish's website https://hamishniven.com/

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TheBraveManProject

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishniven/

TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@hamish.niven

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hamishniven/

Personal Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hamishniven

SEO Title: Kasper Sørensen on Hospital Storytelling, Truth and Dying Children | The Brave Man Project

SEO Description: Danish storyteller Kasper Sørensen on 16 years telling stories to seriously ill children, and what they taught him about living.

Transcript
Speaker:

She was 14 also.

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And the first thing she said without moving her lips because that would be painful.

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She had, do you know any fairy tales of ugly princesses?

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Of I did.

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Of course I did.

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I mean, I didn't.

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But for her, I would craft one.

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I would do my very best for that girl.

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So I started telling.

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Not knowing where this would end.

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Mm-hmm.

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But being in the story with her, listening to her sighs, seeing her face, facial

movements, seeing, hey, where does this story need to go?

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And she didn't need...

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Translate to me why she asked that question as I don't need to translate to you

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welcome to another episode of the Brave Man Project.

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Today we're chatting with Casper and this is gonna be a very interesting conversation

because this man has got the most incredible job.

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In fact, I don't think job is the right word.

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I think he's got the most incredible vocation because to do what he does, you have got to

be a very kind, compassionate and strong human being.

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So Casper, thanks so much for turning up today.

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Well, thank you for inviting me.

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I've been looking forward to this.

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Let's dive in, tell me what you do, because I think this is a great way to start to how

people can understand who you

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are.

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I will do that.

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will start when I was a kid, even though you asked for a job title.

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When I was a boy, was in a school where some of the teachers, not all of them, but some of

them told stories.

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In the mind of the Danish thinker Grundvik is that you don't mention things with words,

you create them with words.

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And what he means by that is that you paint them in the mind of the listener, you project

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images inside the head and you add glue and you stick it in there and so they stay.

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And I loved those sessions and other teachers who wasn't doing that were saying you have

to listen this is really exciting and I knew this tiny little voice in the back of my

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head, nope.

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Because if it was exciting I would already be listening.

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So you're wrong.

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I never got popular for saying it but

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but that's what's happened and

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When I turned 18, my phone rang and I was on the couch watching TV and doing nothing with

my life.

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There was this great tone in the phone saying, can you come and work in this Fritz's ship,

is a kindergarten for school kids.

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After school, they go and they have a good time there.

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The leader's second, can you come?

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And sure, 30 kids, I can do that.

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It was next to the big park in Copenhagen, really nice.

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And during the day it was wonderful because the kids were in school.

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But then they would come and they would be all over and there were so many kids and I was

scared.

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And I tried to say adult stuff.

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You have to listen.

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It's very exciting what I tell you.

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And they were like...

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~

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tried to remember how did responsible or

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adults catch my attention, or conscious adults.

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And they told me stories, so I tried that with the kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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This is once I woke up on a flow of ice, wild party, and I was there and now I didn't know

what to do.

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And every kid in the room saw these waves on the flow and this they heard the wind and

they were like, what happened?

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Did you die?

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And

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everything changed at that moment.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because now we were not doing the thing of me sending out communication and they had to

receive it.

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Now I was offering and they were co-creating, adding images, imagination, questions,

getting curious and we started to play with it.

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What would you do in that situation?

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And then the story developed and the day passed by and the time flew and it was fun.

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Mm-hmm.

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And suddenly kids were not scared anymore.

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And suddenly it was fun to go, I mean, yeah, go to work, but it wasn't really work.

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It was just fun.

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And the parents came and grabbed their kids in the afternoon and they were like standing

in the doorway listening

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also.

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It's like, this is interesting.

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I thought it was for kids.

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And then time passed and I saw...

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poster with a man saying, I'm going to tell stories for adults in the big park, just

across the street.

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I'm going to go there.

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And there was a blanket for me.

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I laid next to this curly girl that was really beautiful and I didn't see her.

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Because on this white bench was a man.

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And this was his tools, his face, his mouth, his hands, nothing else.

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A perfect blue sky behind him.

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And he started talking and he started telling and images just

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was around my brain, bouncing off the walls from my brain, crafting

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the movie that he was telling.

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And at the same time, I was one big confusion.

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Why do I like this?

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Why do I love this?

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I'm an adult.

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This is what we do to kids.

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And then I realized, no, no.

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Adults are just kids who don't get told stories anymore.

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And that's where my life purpose...

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kind of became not clear, but at least clearer.

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I said, okay, I want to do this.

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And I went to the guy and said, hey, can we work together?

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And he was like, yeah.

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And a few months later, I was standing in front of an adult audience who actually paid a

lot of money to hear stories.

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There was no action.

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There was this black t-shirt

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and there was me and him and that was it.

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And they liked it.

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I start to think, could this be something that I do?

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Can I meet people and tell them stories?

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Life took me to university and then back out.

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And then I decided, okay, I can't wait.

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I don't have the nerve to wait to see what life offers.

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I have to act.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then I quit everything else that I did.

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I had a webpage done, I said, no, I'm a storyteller.

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And my heart was sighing with joy.

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This is going to sound like a lie, but back in the day, cell phones could have their

battery for a long time, for

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days.

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Do you remember the noxious?

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Wow, it could last the whole summer.

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And I put it on my table and I sat and for three weeks I looked at it and nothing

happened.

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first customer.

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And can you do this and that?

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Yeah, yeah, I'm very trained in that.

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That's my specialty.

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and kids and adults and everybody was just calling and wanting stories and it's like yeah

I can do that.

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Do you know Hans Christian Andersen?

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Yep, at least when I meet you I will.

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Or I told the stories my teachers told me.

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Do you know the North mythology?

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Yeah, about Thor with hammer.

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Yeah, I know that one.

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And Loki and why is he so sneaky and why don't they just throw him out and we talk about

do we need sneakiness in our lives or should everything be straight?

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And all that I've learned in school, the Greek mythology and all the fairy tales, in this

case the Danish history and all the kings we had and all the wars we lost and stuff.

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that, people wanted to hear it.

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And slowly I started to learn to become a storyteller.

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sometimes a school teacher would call me and say, hey, we have 200 kids Monday morning.

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You want to come share for them.

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And that's a lot of kids.

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And then you have to realize, OK, that's a lot of kids.

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Well,

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you better have a good story.

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So what do kids like?

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Let's make it a bit...

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So I started telling stories about being, my father wasn't really normal.

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He had a gun that you go hunting with a rifle.

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And he said, when you're gonna be a man, you're gonna have one too.

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You're gonna kill your own food.

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Just wait, see, you get the gun, you shoot the animal, put up the head on the wall, eat

the rest.

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And he was my father's son.

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I told this to kids in schools and 200 souls were just sucked in this vacuum of

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you

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And then on my eighth birthday, he finally came tiptoeing in.

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You eat your own food.

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And

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of course I went out of bed, through the hallway and opened the fridge.

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And all the kids crack up.

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Now they know this guy is going to play with us.

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He's not serious.

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It's going to be fun.

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And I'm

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going to shoot my pizza.

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And dad's like, no, it's not shooting your food.

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Go in the forest.

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And five minutes later, I'm going hunting with a bazooka.

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Okay, we can do that.

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And

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now 200,000 kids in Denmark have heard this story of going into the wilderness and just

trying to find my way there.

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And I

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guess being a storyteller is like that.

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You cannot trample a path somebody else made for you.

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The only, like Campbell would say, Joseph Campbell would say, if you find a way through

the forest, you can be sure of one thing, it is not yours.

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Yours begin at the darkest, most horrible place.

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That's

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where your path begins.

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The impossible to enter place.

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That's where your road begins.

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Storytelling

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is like that.

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Now, this summer, I'm...

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celebrating 25 years as a professional storyteller.

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I go and tell, that's what I do.

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And I'm looking back at a life of blessings, really.

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When I go to work, I meet people that are happy, that look forward to seeing me or hearing

me.

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We have fun for now, or three, whatever we

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do.

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And then they applaud me and give me money.

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And I go home.

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There are days where I think they will come knocking soon and saying, what, you thought

you could live like that?

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No, no, no, you're coming

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with us.

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Nobody can do that, but that's how fortunate I am.

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That was a long answer to the word storyteller.

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I'm a storyteller.

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Thank you for us.

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that is the most important role there is ever, the storyteller.

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you've mentioned the Greek mythology, the Norse mythology, your own stories from your

country.

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That's what people love.

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That's what people, live for.

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~ And it's, they are so incredibly important.

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I worked in Ireland many years ago and we were listening to

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an old gentleman telling the stories of his forefathers and things like that.

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And he had a stick and he would, for those who can't see, I'm tapping my desk, he would

tap the stick in time of the beat he was talking to bring the rhyme.

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And he would remember the stories with the tap.

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And the director hadn't got a clue, so he kept on stopping the guy from tapping.

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And then his conversation would stop.

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and then he would start tapping again and go back into flow.

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And the stories, the tapping was telling that story.

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And like me, I I was transfixed with the way you said that.

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You've got this beautiful delivery and it's what humanity is all about, just stories and

remembering and that sharing.

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It's communion, isn't it?

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It's just beautiful.

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I think the word is communion.

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As you say, we are united for a little while, not alone, because we

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meet in the story.

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And it's not like I'm important because I am the storyteller.

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No, no, no, the listeners, at least it's important because

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they take all the words and they unpack them and they craft this little film in the head.

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And even better, they have their own longings and questions.

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Why did they do that?

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Hmm?

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You have three wishes.

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I know what he should wish.

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Yeah

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And so

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often I go away from storytelling sessions having learned something about other people.

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Saying, that was a angle.

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I hadn't thought of that.

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Thank you.

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It's a privilege to not fear the alarm clock.

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Mm-hmm.

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Just wake up and go.

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So tell me, how did you end up working in the hospitals?

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How did you find that role?

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When I was working in that Fritzesche, the kindergarten for the bit older kids, one of the

mothers came picking up her son in the afternoon and she listened and she listened and one

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day she said, can I speak with you?

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She said, I'm a nurse.

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Okay.

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And just actually across the street, was the Danish National Hospital, the hospital of

the...

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Yeah, of Denmark.

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And she was a nurse at the cancer division for kids.

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And she saw what Sorris did to normal kids.

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Maybe it could

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come over.

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There's kind of no way you can turn that down.

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You can't

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do that.

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It's not possible to say, helping cancer kids.

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No, no, I got better things to do.

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It's not happening.

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So I said, of course I'm going to come.

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And I was scared because

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What if I said something they wouldn't like or what could I end up hurting them somehow or

scaring them more?

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I don't know.

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But I said yes.

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And I came and there was four kids in the room and two adults and one of the boys, his

name was Peter and he had a hat with rainbow colors and a little solar panel so that could

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turn a little thing on it.

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And he was laughing and laughing and laughing.

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It was a fun story and he was happy and I thought, job done.

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I can go now.

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But no, no, no.

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The other nurse grabbed me and said, we're at him for two weeks.

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This is the first time he smiles.

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Can you please come back?

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And that was the beginning of a long dive into the hospital world

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Hmm.

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where kids are.

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And it's good that we have the hospitals we have because Danish, I'm sure you guys are

good and Danish hospitals are great.

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We have so many skilled workers there, so many good doctors and nurses.

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And I'm just amazed on how great they are.

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for the first years it was the cancer.

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department but then it spread to the whole hospital and then and suddenly you would you

would be with a kid 14 years old who had a new heart.

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And then, of course, we had to share love stories.

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And how it is to have a new heart and try again.

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Even though your heart was broken, you can try one more time to act like if you never had

your heart broken before.

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How would you see life then?

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at the burn section out by the 10th floor.

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There was a girl who had been in a terrible fire and she was scarred and she would be for

life.

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She was 14 also.

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And the first thing she said without moving her lips because that would be painful.

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She had, do you know any fairy tales of ugly princesses?

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Of I did.

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Of course I did.

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I mean, I didn't.

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But for her, I would craft one.

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I would do my very best for that girl.

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So I started telling.

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Not knowing where this would end.

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Mm-hmm.

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But being in the story with her, listening to her sighs, seeing her face, facial

movements, seeing, hey, where does this story need to go?

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And she didn't need...

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Translate to me why she asked that question as I don't need to translate to you

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Hmm.

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So I told stories of princesses whose beauty was on the inside.

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And sometimes the hospital would be like that.

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Sometimes they needed something, the kids.

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And that's all them.

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If I could.

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And other times we'd just be blasting fun and laughing.

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And who cares about death and being sick?

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And who cares?

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Let's laugh.

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Realizing time after time, the old saying, death will not be stopped by fear.

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Fear cannot be

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Stop death.

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Mess up the life before death.

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So we, and I've been a storyteller at the hospital for 16 years now.

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I've had a break, but I come back now.

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And all I've learned again and again from very young people, kids, they all said the same.

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I asked them, what do you know about life?

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You're in special situation.

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What do you know about life that everybody

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should know?

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And they all said the same, be happy, forgive, live.

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because you don't know when it's going to change.

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Enjoy what you have.

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All of them, even small kids knew this.

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And I've been looking at my life thinking, do you have to go and stare down the abyss to

realize this?

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Or can

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you borrow their experiences?

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I was with a kid, he was 15, and suddenly he wasn't at the cancer department anymore.

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He had moved to intensive care because things were getting bad.

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And I wish you haven't, I hope you haven't been to a place like that, and I wish you never

shall.

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But you put on so many layers of protection, you don't want to bring any harmful germ into

them.

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You have masks, you stand, you go through airlocks, so you...

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don't bring anything in, you stand

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under a suction thing and he's over there in the bed all bones and skin and scared eyes

and I stand there and he says they only speak about my numbers.

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They haven't told you you're gonna die?

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No.

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They don't

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dare.

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He was surrounded by doctors who didn't have the nerve to tell him he was gonna die.

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So they tried to hint it to him via his numbers.

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Mm-hmm.

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And said, so they, what, they haven't told you how great it is to be dead?

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He said, what?

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What did you say, man?

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They haven't told you, do you wanna know?

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So I told them, hold this today.

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The thing that's just between us, I don't know.

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But that didn't matter because whatever he had in his mind was scary.

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Hmm.

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So we closed our eyes and we walked through a long tunnel of doors in different colors and

he chose one that was blue.

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And we opened that blue door.

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And when we closed it again from the other side, it had a sign, you're welcome back.

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You can just come back.

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But really, why would you?

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Hmm.

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And then we walked in and we had, we sidestepped on the story and said, yeah, why would

you come?

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Why don't they ever come back?

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That's what we had.

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Maybe it's nice to be in there.

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And we danced into the world of Astrid Lindgren, The Brothers Lie on Heart.

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If you haven't read that book, you will.

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You will read that book.

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And it's about two brothers that die and come to a new world where they can fish and ride

horses and live on an amazing farm and everything's wonderful.

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And I didn't ask, that, could I borrow your world?

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I just took it and

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let that boy, that world of imagination of the next world, even greater, more colors, more

fun, where you wouldn't be afraid.

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You wouldn't be scared.

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You would meet your friends.

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And you would go horseback riding.

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And you would make campfires under stars.

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And you would fall asleep listening to one of them, whoever turned it was, telling a

story.

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And he said, is that how it is to die?

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That was the last time I saw it.

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Mm-hmm.

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And think stories convey more than numbers.

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And I think that is a way to examine what do we know about life?

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What is important?

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How do we want to spend our minutes even?

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Mm.

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By God, is this, it's pissing away.

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When I was driving home today, one guy cut totally in front of me.

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And I stood on my brakes, and it was barely that I wouldn't be in this interview.

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We were really close.

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And he speeded for 30 meters, and then he had to stop because there was also a line in

that.

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Mm-hmm.

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And he won four meters or so.

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is so precious, we have so little of it, let's not waste it.

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Let's have a good time and be kind, huh?

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Let's

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forgive and appreciate what we have.

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Yeah, so that's how I ended up in the hospital, staying there and telling them stories.

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Just this year, I've introduced three colleagues into the hospital storytelling world.

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because it is hard to be there.

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And so I'm not alone now, so we share, which is nice.

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and a very good storyteller and colleague of mine, Lasse, he was there in his kids, he

said, no, I don't want stories.

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Lasse is smart.

382

:

So he said, what stories don't you want to hear just so I know?

383

:

Well, certainly not this and this and that.

384

:

Oh, how about this story?

385

:

I don't know that.

386

:

Ten minutes later they are so absorbed in the story that the boy pees in bed because he

don't want to go to the toilet and miss part of the story.

387

:

He pisses himself.

388

:

What better metal could you get for your work than

389

:

Mm.

390

:

So yeah, when I was seven, the first story my teacher in school told me was the Iliad and

the Odyssey.

391

:

That took a year for them to tell me that story.

392

:

One lesson a week,

393

:

And 35 years later, I met a girl, she was 12, gorgeous black quartz-grewed curls and dark

eyes, and she had been in a traffic accident.

394

:

And there was a lot of trouble around her, not with her, but around her.

395

:

And she couldn't walk, she was paralyzed, she couldn't breathe, was a machine breathing

for her.

396

:

a new instantly even though for 30 some years I hadn't touched that story this would be

the right tale for her about something very big to conquer about being smart and getting

397

:

home until she would be 18 and home in her own life a queen

398

:

So every Wednesday I went to her and told her stories about all those hazards that are in

the Odyssey and about getting home to yourself.

399

:

And we would stop and we could...

400

:

When we got to the part where on Kirkus Island she gives Odysseus the offer of the black

sheep and goes to the Hades and speak with the dead.

401

:

I forgot the story.

402

:

Odysseus meets his mother.

403

:

But what would they talk about?

404

:

I couldn't remember.

405

:

That was so strange.

406

:

Knowing that this girl's mother died in the same traffic accident that paralyzed her, I

knew she missed her.

407

:

Hmm.

408

:

So what would you talk with your dead mother about?

409

:

What do think Odysseus did?

410

:

And she helped the storyteller.

411

:

I think he wanted this and this and that and this and that.

412

:

And did he notice that?

413

:

Did she notice that he had new earrings?

414

:

Maybe she was talking about herself.

415

:

And that was perfect because

416

:

I could be the dead mother and I could give all the answers and I could whisper like how

she would come and stand by the bed every night and touch those curls and keep her safe.

417

:

and wait and wait and wait and things were perfect there.

418

:

A little bit of Sri Lankan again.

419

:

No rush.

420

:

Come when

421

:

you're ready.

422

:

I'll be here for you.

423

:

Yeah, so much fun.

424

:

Mmm.

425

:

This is some of the work I do is telling stories where meaning is part of

426

:

And your story, Casper, how do you live through these stories?

427

:

How do you...

428

:

create these stories, what do you bring of yourself because if you are

429

:

feeding with the children, listening to them, them adding their input.

430

:

What are you bringing from your soul, from your life experience into these stories?

431

:

Because it's gotta be harrowing seeing those children hurting.

432

:

It must be hard.

433

:

How do you not just put up a wall, but be there even more present than you could be as a

parent or anything?

434

:

How do you do that?

435

:

Well, that's one of the things that are very simple to do, but not easy.

436

:

It's one

437

:

breath at a time.

438

:

Realizing you're going to be with them in their life, walking a part of their path for a

little while and you will leave again.

439

:

Walking, breathing with your own lungs.

440

:

You're going to be fine.

441

:

But if you can leave a little light with them, that's even more fine.

442

:

Mm-hmm.

443

:

So the rule...

444

:

I know three ways of getting stories or having stories.

445

:

One of them is that you can invent them.

446

:

Hmm.

447

:

The other one is that you can live them.

448

:

Like yesterday, something happened in my life and I can tell you about that.

449

:

And the third is that you can acquire them from people who have invented them or lived

them.

450

:

And not all people have this joy of crafting songs or poetry or stories.

451

:

But some do, and you can learn from them and that's fine.

452

:

The old stories are fine.

453

:

The rule for me, maybe the biggest rule in storytelling in my life is you have to speak

the truth.

454

:

You have to speak the truth.

455

:

And this does not mean facts.

456

:

It not mean numbers.

457

:

You have to believe in the humane truth of the story.

458

:

Even though it's a fairy tale in space, or animals talking, it doesn't matter.

459

:

Whoever comes out on top of the story, is that the right one?

460

:

Is it how life should be?

461

:

Is it really reflecting the way you see the world or are you lying to sugarcoat it?

462

:

And that's what you want to stop doing and tell the world like it is.

463

:

And maybe we can go back to the boy at 15.

464

:

Did I tell him the truth?

465

:

Is there a life after death?

466

:

Haven't been,

467

:

as far as I remember.

468

:

That's not the truth I'm looking for.

469

:

The truth I'm looking for is, should adults take care of kids in tough spots?

470

:

Hell yes.

471

:

By any mean, yes.

472

:

Anything I could do for that boy, would do.

473

:

Is

474

:

that how it's supposed to be?

475

:

Yep.

476

:

And it doesn't need to be your truth.

477

:

It doesn't need to be anybody's truth but mine, but I will speak my truth.

478

:

And I think that is the obligation of the storyteller.

479

:

Write or tell how it is.

480

:

Mm-hmm.

481

:

And then other people that thought they were alone in the world can say, oh, there's one

like me.

482

:

I'm not alone.

483

:

I know that, or I know this, or I see myself in the story.

484

:

And you hold the story as a mirror.

485

:

See, hey, what do you see?

486

:

Mm-hmm.

487

:

there's something for you in the story, something you either recognize or realize that

wasn't a mirror at all, though that was a window onto a wall that didn't know.

488

:

and

489

:

Thank you for sharing.

490

:

And that's

491

:

how I do it, one breath at a time, letting the kids see themselves or out the window to

another

492

:

world.

493

:

It's just beautiful.

494

:

~ I'm just playing one or two bits through and just sitting there, looking out of the

window, being told what's out there, being shown what's out there, feeling what's out

495

:

there through your imagination.

496

:

And that's a kind role.

497

:

It's a kind thing to do, isn't it?

498

:

And it's...

499

:

Yeah, quite remarkable.

500

:

Yeah, I.

501

:

Sometimes when you've been an afternoon at the hospital, you want to go in a very busy

street and look at families, moms yelling at kids and dads pulling their arms and

502

:

remembering, yeah, that's also in the world.

503

:

Hmm.

504

:

It's also in the playground, kids running around and laughing and not a care in the world.

505

:

That's all.

506

:

Hospital is very condensed with tough destinies.

507

:

~ once a week is enough for me to go there.

508

:

It's enough.

509

:

Hmm.

510

:

I'm working on next year to open a hospital storyteller mini education so that

511

:

Others that could be interested also could learn the things I see as necessary to go in

that ward and say, do you know this story?

512

:

Would you want a very long, boring story or a fun short one?

513

:

Hmm.

514

:

And that's an easy choice.

515

:

And then

516

:

maybe after the short one, maybe they're hooked for one more.

517

:

not overselling it.

518

:

Just come and give your gift and go away.

519

:

Other kids or other audiences has a role to play as the audience, but not in the hospital.

520

:

They're just kids.

521

:

So we feed them.

522

:

Yesterday I was doing something completely different.

523

:

don't know if I'm I think I'm changing it to see hospitals as part of what I do

524

:

Mm-hmm.

525

:

But I also do other stuff

526

:

what I'm wanting to get is, you know, I know what you do and why you do it and just a

little bit more about your background, what drew you into doing it, the phone not being

527

:

rung for a week, how you come out of the hospital after seeing that child so hurt

528

:

and how you deal with all that kind of stuff.

529

:

think the key to that is not having a very strict way through your story, but having an

intention or an idea when you go in.

530

:

I don't go into a hospital ward thinking, this kid must hear the story of Hansel and

Gretel.

531

:

That's the only right solution here.

532

:

Because why would I know that?

533

:

Mm.

534

:

It's the meeting with the child and sensing into, hmm, what could be interesting here?

535

:

Like, what do you do?

536

:

~

537

:

What do you like or what are you scared of?

538

:

If you were to decide a story, which one should it be?

539

:

Oh, Lightning McCloud or whatever the car thing is.

540

:

I was like, mm-mm, I'm in trouble here.

541

:

I don't know.

542

:

How is he like?

543

:

How is his voice?

544

:

And then suddenly the kid is telling a story.

545

:

And that's equally fine.

546

:

But what you do is that you...

547

:

No, I'll rephrase that.

548

:

What I do is I appreciate my life.

549

:

I'm looking into their abyss and that's enough.

550

:

I don't need to...

551

:

You know how people stop smoking because now the doctor tells them or they

552

:

will die.

553

:

I don't need to go to that edge.

554

:

I can see how privileged I am in my life.

555

:

I can appreciate it now.

556

:

I don't need to be threatened to lose it before I see.

557

:

And I take whatever learnings I can from it.

558

:

Maybe we could picture

559

:

Danish summer, but the really blue skies that we have on these surroundings here.

560

:

And we have, everybody has this big barbecue in their garden.

561

:

the kids are running around and always dad at the grill and mom's laughing.

562

:

It's just the best.

563

:

And you know, maybe if you've been here, the Danish nights, they come slow.

564

:

you

565

:

They turn from blue to blue to bluer to darker.

566

:

And it's wonderful.

567

:

And there's a lot from the other gardens.

568

:

But this day, Dad says, oh, we're going to fry these guys.

569

:

Boys, come over here.

570

:

And his sons of 10 and 12 come and look at Dad.

571

:

And he takes this liquid that you start the grill with, this very highly flammable liquid,

and says, look, we're going to make a big flame.

572

:

And he does.

573

:

And he's not burned from it.

574

:

But they are severely burned.

575

:

So ambulances and that's when I meet them.

576

:

And what do I learn from that story?

577

:

That's not smart when he puts gasoline on a burning fire.

578

:

It's not gasoline, it's another word, but I don't know it in English.

579

:

He's not that smart.

580

:

Okay, don't do that.

581

:

Don't brag.

582

:

Don't show off.

583

:

Don't...

584

:

How else could I try to minimize my ego and see I don't need to show off?

585

:

I just need to cook and provide for my family.

586

:

I don't need to show them big flames.

587

:

He regretted that.

588

:

The smell of shame and guilt in that room.

589

:

Another kid was burned from, do you know what you call it?

590

:

Tea, do you have tea candles is that word?

591

:

Little round white candles.

592

:

Yeah.

593

:

Do you know they come in different qualities?

594

:

Some are really cheap and some are not.

595

:

And some of them are made by, Danish it's called paraffin.

596

:

It's very lousy quality.

597

:

If you add water to one of those that have burned for a few hours, do you know what can

happen?

598

:

and then your kid is burned.

599

:

So I take away a simple lesson, buy quality stuff.

600

:

I mean, if it's important, get the good stuff.

601

:

Don't burn your kids because you'd save the pound.

602

:

Or the boiler we have, have some boilers you just add to power and then they boil the

water.

603

:

Do have that?

604

:

Not a kettle?

605

:

It gets like an electric kettle.

606

:

Mm-hmm.

607

:

You want to get those that are without the cord in, that they put on a base instead of

having the cord in.

608

:

Because when kids pull them, they pull them too hard because the cord is in.

609

:

And then they pour the boring water down upon themselves.

610

:

Maybe those are not big revelations.

611

:

But somebody didn't think about that.

612

:

So you take all you can learn, you go through your home and say, hmm, can this be more

safe?

613

:

And you fix it.

614

:

Or how you drive or...

615

:

How you walk the street?

616

:

How do you manage life?

617

:

Yeah, and then you take that knowledge and you try to apply it to other parts of life.

618

:

That's

619

:

how I do it.

620

:

What meaning can I draft out of this situation?

621

:

And that's it.

622

:

Before we started recording, you told me something.

623

:

I hope it's okay to share it.

624

:

If not, you must beat me.

625

:

Thanks.

626

:

You told me you had some time for yourself, lying on the couch and relaxing.

627

:

That's right.

628

:

~

629

:

And instantly I thought, hmm, why didn't I have that?

630

:

Wait a minute, yeah?

631

:

This guy's living his life in a way that I should learn from.

632

:

I've been busy for a week.

633

:

I'm tired.

634

:

Why didn't I have a nap or a couch or something before?

635

:

And I think humans are like that.

636

:

We steal with

637

:

our ears good ideas.

638

:

Oh, I could do that.

639

:

And then try to add it to life.

640

:

I don't know if that was the answer you wanted, but that's what I had.

641

:

Every answer is perfect.

642

:

mean, this is a conversation about

643

:

about and by one of the most incredible people I've met for a long time.

644

:

I

645

:

how you can go into a hospital where you've met the parent whose moment of stupidity burnt

their two sons, how you can...

646

:

not want to throttle the parent, I have no idea.

647

:

~ And then how you can give that compassion to that child and make them smile when...

648

:

They are so hurt.

649

:

I couldn't do that.

650

:

I would want to roll parents and bury them.

651

:

~

652

:

yeah, that comes up sometimes.

653

:

But you see, I believe that everybody that I've met, and probably those I haven't met,

everybody's doing their best.

654

:

And sometimes the best is not very impressive.

655

:

But they're really doing, I don't know anybody who is not doing their best.

656

:

And nobody knows before they have learned and if nobody helps them, maybe they'll never

learn.

657

:

And some people are poorly helped in life.

658

:

And so I learn that if I can.

659

:

If I can help, I'll help.

660

:

Hmm.

661

:

And that father will never do it again, I'm sure.

662

:

He learned.

663

:

And his sons

664

:

will never do it, and the neighbors will never do it.

665

:

So at least we can learn so it's not

666

:

wasted.

667

:

And even the worst of parents try.

668

:

think you've nailed something incredibly important that is everyone is doing the best that

they can and you know if they could do better they would.

669

:

~

670

:

First time I met that I didn't believe that I didn't think I was doing the best I could

then with looking back at things I was I couldn't have done better than I did otherwise I

671

:

would have done ~

672

:

and so they have to I have to bring in self-compassion you know I have to stop judging

myself for those

673

:

mistakes, those poor judgments or whatever, but I was keeping myself safe.

674

:

I was showing off to be liked.

675

:

was trying to hide whatever it was.

676

:

But how do you get to that place where you accept you're doing the best that you can,

especially when you have been that poor father?

677

:

How do you realize that was your best and then learn from it?

678

:

I think that's the important bit, the learning from it.

679

:

Yeah, I think the I have learned in my life that one place shame does not thrive is out in

the air, out in the open.

680

:

So when you start sharing the stories that were that you don't brag about, where you were

not the hero, where you messed up and you did bad stuff once you start in safe

681

:

environment.

682

:

to air them and tell them.

683

:

little people can bite their tongue and not start to fix you or say something, but just

listen.

684

:

Hmm.

685

:

Because that's a big gift.

686

:

And offer you their ear and their response, something like that happened in your life.

687

:

I see that you carry this pain or this shame or this fault you did or wrong you did.

688

:

And once it's out there and everybody else sees, you don't have to carry that.

689

:

I mean, everybody messes up.

690

:

Once we're there, we start the process of, for how long do you want to carry this with

you?

691

:

How long shall it?

692

:

I mean, if you could set the date,

693

:

shall you have it another week?

694

:

and then we celebrate when you leave it behind.

695

:

Most of us, stupidity, I believe, comes from strategies that helped us when we were kids.

696

:

Somehow it was a survival mechanism and kids don't have a lot of things to do.

697

:

I mean, to do with...

698

:

The only real commodity they have is love.

699

:

Kids need mom and dad to love them.

700

:

Mm.

701

:

So they will fold and they will say, if I do this, will you love me?

702

:

If I'm like that, will you love me?

703

:

If I'm like you dad, if I'm also a hunter now, will you love me?

704

:

Or now I have hair like you, or now I wear the same...

705

:

Whatever.

706

:

We

707

:

need for survival.

708

:

And later in life it's not good strategies, but we're still falling.

709

:

Yeah.

710

:

hmm, maybe I can change.

711

:

Mom gave me nice comfort food when I was crying and chocolate.

712

:

And maybe now, 40 years later or 50 years later, it's not a great plan to stuff my

713

:

face with them.

714

:

Maybe I should call a friend and start here.

715

:

I'm having this trouble.

716

:

I have a friend, the opening line of many of our phone calls is this, hello?

717

:

Do you have room on your carpet so I can puke?

718

:

It's like, OK, moving the furniture, bring it on, and you just vomit this whatever's wrong

and how bad it is.

719

:

Mm.

720

:

Sometimes it was like, thank you, bye.

721

:

Now you have it.

722

:

Hmm.

723

:

Another time to be.

724

:

take a stick and prick around him and see what's in there.

725

:

Hmm, what came up?

726

:

Why was that a problem?

727

:

And the second you vented it, it's not as bad anymore because he loved me anyway.

728

:

Mm-hmm.

729

:

the weird thing is it seems every time we do it, and we've done it for many years, we just

trust each other more and more.

730

:

Mm.

731

:

Because it's not fake, it's real human life.

732

:

Not perfect, tiny,

733

:

real.

734

:

And back to say the things we spoke of before.

735

:

Speak the truth.

736

:

Speak your truth.

737

:

Keep it real.

738

:

Yep.

739

:

To quote you, it's very simple, but it's not easy.

740

:

It's very simple, but it's not easy.

741

:

Yeah, it's laced with what will they say?

742

:

What will they think?

743

:

What will they do?

744

:

Will they judge me?

745

:

And all those what ifs, what ifs, what ifs, but what if they don't?

746

:

What if he says,

747

:

here's a bucket, you haven't got a cute puke on my carpet, use a bucket.

748

:

I'm listening, ~

749

:

Yeah, it is not

750

:

easy, but it is worth it.

751

:

Absolutely.

752

:

that's also experience that I have in my life.

753

:

I don't know if you recognize this, how many easy, acquirable things have made you happy?

754

:

I mean, if it comes easy, usually it doesn't have a lot of value.

755

:

Mm.

756

:

In my life, I've seen those things that are hard to learn, hard to achieve, they bring

value too.

757

:

Maybe there are exceptions, I mean, why

758

:

not?

759

:

But really, every skill you learn, you fight for it, you suck at it in the beginning, and

you'll never make it, you don't make progress.

760

:

And half a year later, you suddenly play that violin a bit,

761

:

sing that song and tell that story, or tap that dance, or whatever, and you make

762

:

progress.

763

:

That's wonderful to remember.

764

:

I can be bad at stuff and be better.

765

:

That's the code I have in my life.

766

:

I always have to do something in my life that I'm bad at.

767

:

Mm-hmm.

768

:

Because it slows down time so much.

769

:

When you're horrible at something, you mess up and you wish this hour would pass.

770

:

But it's like forever.

771

:

Yep.

772

:

And slowly you progress.

773

:

Yeah, I'm laughing because I'm thinking when I'm trying to, when I was starting to create

websites, I'd be there with Google in this hand, something else in this hand, computer

774

:

there,

775

:

three lines, go back, go back.

776

:

It took forever.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

Yeah.

779

:

Yeah.

780

:

And it was hard.

781

:

is.

782

:

And it is hard.

783

:

And then suddenly you have a black belt in homepaging.

784

:

yes.

785

:

You do podcasts and blogs and suddenly you're you.

786

:

Mm.

787

:

You found your way through the forest.

788

:

Impressive.

789

:

Well done, you.

790

:

and you suddenly realize you're doing something you're enjoying and I mean, I get to talk

to people like you, very fortunate.

791

:

I get to talk to like the Australian person this morning, amazing human being.

792

:

I get to share people's

793

:

stories and it is, it gets me out of bed, gets me off the couch when I was coughing and

spluttering half an hour ago and thinking,

794

:

do I really want to do this conversation?

795

:

Yes, I'm going to because I've committed to it and

796

:

We've talked magic.

797

:

You know, you've made me cry.

798

:

What your stories and the children and things like that.

799

:

it's.

800

:

It's just also beautiful.

801

:

I've been fortunate in my life to have a life as a storyteller, sometimes very big

audiences.

802

:

with the wings of story have been in many parts of the world sharing stories.

803

:

The most meaningful parts have been in that hospital.

804

:

One kid at a time.

805

:

Mm-hmm.

806

:

Yay.

807

:

Magical, Casper, absolutely magical.

808

:

I think this has been a really awe-inspiring conversation.

809

:

I have no idea where we're gonna go with it and it's just the magic, not just, it is the

magic of stories, that magic of that human connection.

810

:

~ It's so sacred, it's so ancient, isn't it?

811

:

It's so bringing people together and yeah, and then love.

812

:

I think it is.

813

:

And I think when you don't have stories, you can be lost in life.

814

:

because they're also reference points.

815

:

We know the same story and we enjoy the same moments.

816

:

A bunch of kids that read a book, one will be the fastest reader and the good reader.

817

:

In a story, we take the tour together.

818

:

You can't

819

:

listen faster than the other kid or the other adult.

820

:

It's a group experience.

821

:

It can be very hard, at least for me, to find people who have read the same books I've

read.

822

:

Hmm.

823

:

I can give you a book and say, this is amazing, read it.

824

:

And you say, thank you.

825

:

my, ~ very good, because my aquarium is not stable, so I just needed that book for that.

826

:

Thank you.

827

:

And it's so hard to get people to read books, I think.

828

:

But listening to stories, you hook them in a few lines and they're there.

829

:

Another question that popped to mind.

830

:

~ Your stories, ~ they have heroes and heroines and bad guys and things.

831

:

I'm presuming there's an archetypal narrative going through them.

832

:

It's not simplistic, but is there a kind of a theme or a journey that

833

:

sort of melds its way through these stories

834

:

that you're talking about, you're sharing.

835

:

When I was a younger storyteller, had a...

836

:

what do you put...

837

:

I don't know the word.

838

:

have a bottle of wine.

839

:

A wine rack would be

840

:

the word.

841

:

But I had it for my stories.

842

:

I put on a piece of paper the title of the story, put it up there.

843

:

And sometimes I would drag one down and taste it and some of them would be ripe and some

of them would be sour.

844

:

And I had to leave that story for some reason because

845

:

it wasn't me anymore.

846

:

And that's to say, yes, there is a theme, but it is always changing.

847

:

It's always what is right today, what feels right with this audience, with this.

848

:

Why do we...

849

:

Why are here?

850

:

And I don't think I could put a headline on it, but I can say this.

851

:

I tell more and more stories from my own life.

852

:

Hmm.

853

:

I tell more and more stories about what I, how I see the world as me.

854

:

I don't disguise it in a character.

855

:

I stand by my opinions.

856

:

And the stories I enjoy the most at this time is the stories that let the underdog win.

857

:

I think there's so many people with too much power in this world and they're not doing

really well handling it.

858

:

And the weapon against that is storytelling

859

:

See you next

860

:

about how it also could be.

861

:

Hmm.

862

:

I just just yesterday, just yesterday, I realized there's a lot of the old fairy tales

that has the youngest son sitting by the ashes of the fire with a stick or poking it or

863

:

boiling oatmeal or something.

864

:

Do you know that theme about the

865

:

ash boy?

866

:

And just yesterday I realized, ~ they are the people with autism of that time.

867

:

It's like the ones who doesn't speak before it's needed.

868

:

They don't fit in the world.

869

:

They focus here with the ashes and what they can overlook, and they don't need all the

other trouble.

870

:

suddenly they need it and they rise to the occasion.

871

:

They are the ones who will be the get the queen or the other princes and make her a queen.

872

:

The special ones

873

:

Hmm.

874

:

because being ordinary I read somewhere Tetris told us about that fitting in makes you

disappear.

875

:

I like that.

876

:

It's like, poof, you're gone.

877

:

No, gotta be with the edges don't totally meet and you're a bit off and maybe everybody

is.

878

:

But those who dare to share on how they see the world, just a bit different, everybody

else sighs with relief and say, oh, I knew that.

879

:

I thought I was the only one.

880

:

So those kind of stories.

881

:

Mm-hmm.

882

:

I enjoy.

883

:

Can I jump to another thing that's on my heart?

884

:

this is your stage, absolutely.

885

:

~ no, no, no, it's conversation, man.

886

:

We were doing some shows yesterday.

887

:

We have a theater in Copenhagen called Best Tellers.

888

:

And at Best Tellers, it's a story theater.

889

:

So you can only hear stories.

890

:

That's what we have.

891

:

Mm-hmm.

892

:

But yesterday we have something we call Stories in the Dark.

893

:

It's something we invented.

894

:

Originally it was to separate the facial expression from the voice.

895

:

Can we do that?

896

:

Or will they always follow?

897

:

If I tell you a story and there's a sad tone in it, does my face need to look sad or can I

get away with not looking sad?

898

:

So in that experience we thought, hey, it's cool to have total darkness.

899

:

We blacked out the room.

900

:

Total darkness, wow, it's fun.

901

:

Let's invite people.

902

:

And so everything you know is in the title, the story is in the dark.

903

:

You will not know who the tellers are.

904

:

Mm-hmm.

905

:

You will not know themes.

906

:

You will not know titles of stories.

907

:

You will buy your ticket and come.

908

:

And then people show up and we blindfold them and we take them into the hall, And we sit

them down and we blow out the candles and it's pitch black.

909

:

And then there's no stage because why would you have a stage?

910

:

So we

911

:

sit amongst the audience.

912

:

We know the order of who's going to go and what they're to tell us.

913

:

They sell out every time.

914

:

It's full of people.

915

:

And I keep wondering why.

916

:

Why are they coming?

917

:

They're buying a ticket for something they have no clue about.

918

:

But I think within the soul is this longing for a bit of...

919

:

seduction, bit of losing control in the dark

920

:

Mm-hmm.

921

:

and leaning into it and hearing the voices of the tellers.

922

:

Of course we have stories ready so we tell them.

923

:

That was so much fun yesterday.

924

:

So I got home very late but I'm really happy because we did that.

925

:

Hmm.

926

:

And today with a friend I decided we've been working on something called crowd work.

927

:

It's from

928

:

mostly from comedy, but how do I approach you in the audience?

929

:

You didn't ask for it.

930

:

So how do I make you feel safe enough to have a conversation with me and everybody else is

interested?

931

:

That technique of opening an audience we're working on.

932

:

Mm-hmm.

933

:

And today I decided with a good friend, we're going to do a show on that and we're going

to name it a crowd work or something.

934

:

So it's going to be very obvious.

935

:

That's what we're going to do.

936

:

We have no clue what's going to happen.

937

:

It's not like improv.

938

:

It's like, okay, there is something in the room.

939

:

We'll find out and you're going to help us.

940

:

And this is ex...

941

:

Right now, my...

942

:

the hairs on my arms is standing up.

943

:

like, this is exciting!

944

:

Hmm?

945

:

I don't do drugs and I don't drink and I don't need it because I'm so excited for my work.

946

:

Mm.

947

:

How happy am I?

948

:

How lucky am I?

949

:

I don't know if anybody will come, but I think it's going to be fun.

950

:

I'm sure they are.

951

:

I'm still stuck in that that theatre where I can't see who's speaking.

952

:

My eyes are closed.

953

:

I can hear a voice over there to my left and I can't see what's being said.

954

:

So I'm purely on those words, those emotions.

955

:

And yet I've got this picture.

956

:

I've got the colours and the scene and the mountains and the hills.

957

:

Exactly.

958

:

The person next to me has got sand dunes and rivers.

959

:

completely different images.

960

:

You're sowing the seeds for everyone's imagination.

961

:

And that's much better than watching a movie.

962

:

And that's what you, that's what I I'm going to come to, you're in Copenhagen, aren't you?

963

:

Is that right?

964

:

I'm going to come

965

:

to Copenhagen this year and I'm going to come and listen to you or see you and do this

because I'm enthralled ~ and I love stories.

966

:

And I think this is magical.

967

:

I will do an English

968

:

session just for you.

969

:

I hadn't thought about that bit, yes.

970

:

And then going forward to what you're saying, this new idea you're having, I think that's

also spectacular because you're holding that safe space for your audience to...

971

:

to be a part of it and I love that.

972

:

I think that's really exciting.

973

:

I love that anticipation of what's gonna happen, how's it gonna happen?

974

:

And this longing for togetherness in it, I feel totally confident that everybody in the

audience want us to succeed.

975

:

It feels so safe to stand there because we all want to have a good night.

976

:

Hmm.

977

:

We're all trying our best to get it.

978

:

And I'll be up there or you'll be up there.

979

:

It doesn't really matter.

980

:

Mm-hmm.

981

:

What matters is somebody says, I have an idea.

982

:

And then we roll with that.

983

:

I'm absolutely enthralled and energized and I'm so glad we have this chat today.

984

:

It's just that...

985

:

glad we did it.

986

:

Thank

987

:

you for making it happen.

988

:

They are.

989

:

Really, really exciting.

990

:

So I guess the next question is where can people come and see you?

991

:

Do we have to do it all in Danish or do you do English shows?

992

:

Have you started doing?

993

:

You have some mighty fine storytellers over there.

994

:

And one of the best ones, I believe one of the best ones in the world is living in

England.

995

:

Kat Wetherill is her name.

996

:

And if you ever get the chance, ever, to listen to her, you shall.

997

:

Mm-hmm.

998

:

Or you have doomed yourself to darkness, if you don't.

999

:

You have amazing, you have Debs Newbold who's...

:

00:59:07,382 --> 00:59:18,437

storytelling residence at the Globe in London at Shakespeare's theater where she tells

Shakespeare like he would have been so impressed with her.

:

00:59:18,437 --> 00:59:19,357

Mm-hmm.

:

00:59:19,526 --> 00:59:29,369

And you have so many good storytellers and I've talked with some of them and it's been fun

so yeah you just call me and I'll come over and tell you some stories.

:

00:59:30,509 --> 00:59:33,490

If not you come to Copenhagen and we'll set up an English show

:

00:59:33,490 --> 00:59:34,450

Mm hmm.

:

00:59:34,551 --> 00:59:34,782

Yeah.

:

00:59:34,782 --> 00:59:36,691

Mm hmm.

:

00:59:36,691 --> 00:59:37,703

just do it.

:

00:59:38,110 --> 00:59:39,601

I will take you up on that.

:

00:59:39,601 --> 00:59:40,853

We will create something

:

00:59:40,853 --> 00:59:41,734

for later in the year.

:

00:59:41,734 --> 00:59:43,997

I think that would be a lot of fun.

:

00:59:43,997 --> 00:59:46,018

I know a of people who would be interested.

:

00:59:47,221 --> 00:59:48,221

Absolutely.

:

00:59:48,221 --> 00:59:48,963

Yeah.

:

00:59:48,963 --> 00:59:50,152

Mm hmm.

:

00:59:50,152 --> 00:59:51,213

Yeah.

:

00:59:51,817 --> 00:59:52,929

That'll be fun.

:

00:59:52,951 --> 00:59:54,583

Yeah, Casper, thank you.

:

00:59:54,583 --> 00:59:55,464

Thank you for today.

:

00:59:55,464 --> 00:59:59,590

Thank you so much for sharing your stories with me.

:

00:59:59,590 --> 01:00:01,142

I mean, that's really what it is.

:

01:00:01,142 --> 01:00:02,623

It's just magical.

:

01:00:02,873 --> 01:00:05,238

And thank you for holding up the mirror for me for once.

:

01:00:05,238 --> 01:00:10,669

It's been interesting to be with you and talk with you about this.

:

01:00:10,919 --> 01:00:14,943

When I speak in English, it's not my native tongue as you, it's quite obvious.

:

01:00:14,943 --> 01:00:24,510

But then I also hear the words I say in Jews and a lack and it makes me think of what I

say.

:

01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,163

And that's interesting to hear it again like that.

:

01:00:28,163 --> 01:00:31,064

Thank you for holding the mirror and the microphone up.

:

01:00:32,166 --> 01:00:33,817

You are a generous man.

:

01:00:33,817 --> 01:00:35,298

Well, there we are everybody.

:

01:00:35,298 --> 01:00:39,639

That was Casper, amazing human being, beautiful stories.

:

01:00:39,639 --> 01:00:42,690

And yeah, I hope you enjoyed this episode.

:

01:00:42,690 --> 01:00:46,171

It was certainly something very different, very exciting.

:

01:00:46,171 --> 01:00:49,002

So if you like what you heard, please follow us.

:

01:00:49,002 --> 01:00:50,002

Please make that effort.

:

01:00:50,002 --> 01:00:54,844

Please share this storytelling day to day because this has been really remarkable.

:

01:00:54,844 --> 01:00:56,424

So thank you ever so much.

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About the Podcast

The Brave Man Project with Hamish Niven
Stories of men who have fallen and climbed higher.
This is not a podcast about fixing yourself. You are not broken machinery.

The Brave Man Project is for the man who is brilliant at his job and dead behind the eyes - the one everyone swears is fine. Raw, unedited conversations with men who wore the mask so long they forgot their own face, and men who took it off and found the world in Technicolour.

No formulas. No five-step plans. No burnout experts. Just the truth about what falling cost them, and what it actually took to build something real.

The show moves through two lenses.

The Mirror reflects the lie you've been telling yourself: "I'm alright, mate." Men who were Captain of the Universe, who loaded bricks onto their backs until the weight turned lethal - the heart attack at thirty-seven, the iron mask worn through a marriage, the three drinks needed to sleep. Then they fell. And they chose to look. Their story is your story, a few years back. And they got out.

The Window expands the view. Men who woke up and saw in colour - not because their circumstances changed, but because they did. They don't reflect your collapse. They prove you were never broken to begin with. The Mirror asks, "is this you?" The Window asks, "could this also be you?"

Your host, Hamish Niven, spent twenty-five years filming other people's lives while avoiding his own. Professional, reliable, the man who always showed up - all of it a performance. When addiction brought him down, he didn't find recovery. He found the man buried alive under his own competence. He holds the space here the way he wishes someone had held it for him: no judgement, no advice, no applause.

This is for the man tired of the noise and the bullshit. The man exhausted from carrying a mask. Whether the universe is currently kicking you into the foetal position, or you're simply sick of the black-and-white grind.

The performance is over. The real work starts now.

About your host

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Hamish Niven