Episode 2
I woke up as a ticking clock, not as a ticking bomb
I woke up as a ticking clock, not a ticking bomb
Joe Henderson — former Brisbane police officer, survivor of a heart attack at 37, and a man living with a mechanical heart valve — was on the phone with his best mate Dan when the line went dead. Dan was killed on his police bike while they were still connected.
"I couldn't even say I'm sorry for my behaviour."
"I'm a ticking time bomb, pretty much."
Joe Henderson lives with a mechanical heart valve — every beat an audible reminder of the surgeries that saved him. Add a heart attack at 37, the loss of his best mate, PTSD from police work, and 15 years as a single dad, and you have a man with every reason to break. Instead, he faced the mirror — literally — and changed.
What we explore:
- Rebuilding life after multiple heart surgeries and a stress-driven heart attack at 37
- The weight of grief — losing his best mate — and what it did to his mental health and family
- The mirror exercise: brutal daily self-honesty as the engine of change
- Talking to your children about mental health, and why honesty beats pretending
- Breaking the cycle of toxic masculinity and what fathers model for the next generation
Connect with Joe:
Website: joe-betterdad.com
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/leaddontblame
Facebook: facebook.com/leaddontblame
Instagram: @leaddontblame
A little about Hamish
I spent 25 years building a life that looked successful from the outside, but within, it was the opposite. Everything was falling apart, and I was throwing fuel on that fire. The joy of life had fallen away. Late November 2018, I had to make a choice: live or die. I chose to live, and everything changed. I had to confront the pain I was carrying, look at the stories, and change. I built The Brave Man Project because there was nothing like this when I needed it.
Podcast website https://thebravemanproject.com/
Hamish's website https://hamishniven.com/
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TheBraveManProject
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishniven/
TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@hamish.niven
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hamishniven/
Personal Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hamishniven
Transcript
that heart attack at 37 was due to stress.
Speaker:Thanks
Speaker:just from carrying too much. was a copper at the time.
Speaker:I dealt with the death of my best mate.
Speaker:Now he was doing a wide load special at the time on a police bike.
Speaker:during that phone call, the last bit that I heard was,
Speaker:OH FU... And then the phone dropped out.
Speaker:And so for me, he was working.
Speaker:He could have, you know, just jumped off the phone quickly to deal with something,
Speaker:whatever.
Speaker:And anyway, after that phone call,
Speaker:I tried calling him back a couple of times and it went through to message bank.
Speaker:And he told me, said, Dan died this morning.
Speaker:if I wasn't talking to, kept saying this to myself.
Speaker:If I wasn't talking to him, would he still be here?
Speaker:Did I distract him? Did I do this?
Speaker:Did I, did I, what, what did I,
Speaker:what part did I play in this? And,
Speaker:and I was really, really struggling with it.
Speaker:welcome to another episode of the Brave Man Project today we're chatting with Joe.
Speaker:Joe, thanks so much for being on the show today.
Speaker:was lovely to connect with you just yesterday and find out about you and then yeah,
Speaker:thank you for waiting till 10 o'clock your time to be on the show this morning
Speaker:or this evening for you.
Speaker:yeah that's not a problem at all Hamish.
Speaker:You know happy to be here, happy to have a conversation and enjoy,
Speaker:enjoy real conversation.
Speaker:Now I can hear a ticking and I suspect my listeners can hear a ticking as well.
Speaker:What is that?
Speaker:Okay, so I'm a ticking time bomb,
Speaker:pretty much. So technically, ~ so basically,
Speaker:I've had open heart surgery. ~ And I've had a valve replaced with
Speaker:a mechanical valve. So what you can hear is the mechanicals
Speaker:now hitting as the blood is going through and the hearts pumping the blood through.
Speaker:So that's what you can hear.
Speaker:at the moment. But I mean, if you didn't hear it,
Speaker:I wouldn't be alive. So that's,
Speaker:unfortunately, that's just what it is.
Speaker:And, ~ you know, that's a process that I've been through,
Speaker:and I couldn't really change it.
Speaker:So. So, yeah.
Speaker:Wow,
Speaker:how did that happen? How did you get to that state of life where
Speaker:you needed some heart surgery?
Speaker:And I'm guessing it was not very long ago and I'm guessing you're
Speaker:not really old enough to have a heart attack.
Speaker:Okay, so look, I mean, it is a little bit of a backstory there.
Speaker:I've had open heart surgery.
Speaker:So the valve had to be replaced and then because of that and because
Speaker:my heart had been running quite low on capacity for
Speaker:a period of time before they picked it up ~ basically they had to
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:go in and strengthen the other valve as well otherwise I would have been back
Speaker:in to get that one repaired or replaced as well.
Speaker:So yeah, that was quite the journey.
Speaker:But then previously to that as well,
Speaker:I mean, I say, you know, I've ticked a few boxes here and there,
Speaker:they're done on my to do list.
Speaker:But I mean, I was 37.
Speaker:And that was when I had a heart attack as well.
Speaker:And that was non related to my surgeries or anything like that.
Speaker:That that heart attack at 37 was due to stress.
Speaker:Thanks
Speaker:just from carrying too much. was a copper at the time.
Speaker:~ I dealt with the death of my best mate.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I was carrying that. My relationship had broken down with
Speaker:the mother of my kids and everything.
Speaker:There was just so much impacting all of me and it became too much.
Speaker:Alright.
Speaker:the body just said, right, enough's enough.
Speaker:And I decided to just give me a heart attack and wake me up a little.
Speaker:So there's, yeah, it's what life,
Speaker:I mean, it's what we learn as well,
Speaker:you know, along the way. So men being men,
Speaker:you know, we want to keep putting one foot in front of the other,
Speaker:we can carry everything and unfortunately the body says to you at times,
Speaker:hey, know, what enough's enough,
Speaker:I'm going to teach you,
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So how did you get, let's wind back.
Speaker:you
Speaker:How did you get to that stage?
Speaker:You said you're a policeman working in the police in Brisbane.
Speaker:You lost your best mate. Just tell me through that whole story and bring
Speaker:in some emotions and what you were feeling as well.
Speaker:Just so it's not just a story of events,
Speaker:but also the journey of feelings and emotions so we can really
Speaker:get to understand what you were dealing with.
Speaker:Okay, so I mean, look, I'll start with obviously my best mate.
Speaker:~ So I mean, we've all got mates that or a best mate that
Speaker:you can say basically, he's your brother,
Speaker:right? ~ And I looked at him as a brother,
Speaker:I never looked at him as a mate.
Speaker:He was, we were two peas in the pod.
Speaker:And he was a copper as well. And he and I'd known
Speaker:him from high school.
Speaker:had grown up and turned into men together and we had a whole,
Speaker:you know, array of life stories together as we grew and grew into
Speaker:men and went through different cycles of our life and stuff like that.
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:he was that person to me. And so we had a ritual that we would ring each
Speaker:other on each other's birthdays and just,
Speaker:I guess, take the piss out of each other a bit.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:stuff like that as guys do. ~
Speaker:And so he had rung me ~ for my birthday.
Speaker:We're having a conversation just about anything,
Speaker:you know, and everything pretty much.
Speaker:And, you know,
Speaker:during the conversation, he says to me,
Speaker:okay, I said, look, also, he said,
Speaker:well, something I want to tell you,
Speaker:he said, and I really want you to hear it from from my mouth.
Speaker:He said, I'm going to be a dad for the first time.
Speaker:And the joy that was in this guy's voice
Speaker:and I knew because he couldn't wait to be a dad.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right. He, and I'd already been a dad to 2 boys
Speaker:and he was the godfather to both of my boys.
Speaker:So I could see how much he wanted it.
Speaker:So I was over the moon for him.
Speaker:And then 30 seconds later, during that phone call,
Speaker:the last bit that I heard was,
Speaker:OH FU... And then the phone dropped out.
Speaker:Now he was doing a wide load special at the time on a police bike.
Speaker:And so for me, he was working.
Speaker:So anything could have happened.
Speaker:He could have, you know, just jumped off the phone quickly to deal with something,
Speaker:whatever.
Speaker:And anyway, after that phone call,
Speaker:I tried calling him back a couple of times and it went through to message bank.
Speaker:So I still didn't think anything,
Speaker:right? I'm just like, this is not going to be a worst case scenario.
Speaker:Like he's just had to deal with something I can't get through.
Speaker:He's been on the phone, whatever it is.
Speaker:And so in the meantime,
Speaker:I've called his wife and she's a cop as well.
Speaker:And so
Speaker:Well, you know, congratulated her you know,
Speaker:had a big conversation about everything.
Speaker:And near the end of that conversation,
Speaker:I said, look, you know, I don't want you to worry.
Speaker:I said, not all to panic over anything.
Speaker:I said, but have you heard from Dan this morning?
Speaker:She said, no, usually I would have heard from him by now.
Speaker:And I said, look, this is what happened near the end of my phone call.
Speaker:I said, but when you hear from him.
Speaker:get him to give me a call so they'll know that everything's okay.
Speaker:She's like, yep. And as I said that,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:she said, I've got to go, the boss wants me in her office.
Speaker:I'm still not thinking anything.
Speaker:Worst case scenario. So we end the phone call.
Speaker:Not even five minutes later, my ex-partner at the time rang me.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:He said, where are you? A couple of the guys are here to see you from work.
Speaker:Cause I was on leave. So at that point,
Speaker:obviously I'm still not thinking anything.
Speaker:It was not abnormal for them to drop into the house.
Speaker:And I get home and, and my Sergeant says,
Speaker:mate, I've got to tell you something.
Speaker:And he told me, said, Dan died this morning.
Speaker:And you know, when I mean, it was obviously shock.
Speaker:but my body and I mentally don't actually remember.
Speaker:~ But I went to punch him.
Speaker:And both of them ended up having to hold me on the floor
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:for a period of time to get me to calm down.
Speaker:Now I don't remember going to punch him or do anything like that.
Speaker:So I don't recall that.
Speaker:And they had no idea that I was on the phone with him either at the time.
Speaker:So all of this is becoming a shock to everyone.
Speaker:Anyway, my ex at the time said,
Speaker:do it. What time did it happen?
Speaker:And she pieced it together and said he was talking to him at the time.
Speaker:And my sergeant just went, no,
Speaker:you got to be kidding me. And he walked outside and on the phone,
Speaker:making phone calls and stuff like that as well,
Speaker:obviously to bosses and whatever.
Speaker:But I can tell you like
Speaker:yeah. Like I've, I don't think I've ever felt so numb in all my life.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Like once, once I'd come to and I'd calmed and,
Speaker:important.
Speaker:and everything, you know, it was just the fact that
Speaker:he had just told me that it was going to be a dad and now he's not even here.
Speaker:He's not even going to see it.
Speaker:He's not even going to experience it.
Speaker:And he, his child won't even see him.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So like that just tore me mentally.
Speaker:~ That tore me down quite a bit actually.
Speaker:And it made me sort of look at my boys who were,
Speaker:I think they were probably nearly two and four at the time.
Speaker:Yeah, I just wanted to grab them and hug them and stuff like that.
Speaker:Like I just, you know, it was something that I've...
Speaker:And I've never experienced loss like that.
Speaker:So for me,
Speaker:I mean, I've lost grandparents and stuff over the time like we all have,
Speaker:but it was sort of expected. But to suddenly lose someone like that,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:that just really shook me. And I'd seen as a copper,
Speaker:I'd seen death and seen, you know,
Speaker:being to suicides and being to all of that sort of thing as well,
Speaker:you know, but until it actually is a direct impact.
Speaker:to you as a person, that was where it really took its toll.
Speaker:yeah, so that rocked me. That really rocked me.
Speaker:And then obviously we led into,
Speaker:you know, and unfortunately at the same time,
Speaker:it sort of led into a path of my relationship breaking down as well.
Speaker:I mean, it had put a bit of a spotlight on a few things,
Speaker:to be honest, that things weren't working.
Speaker:And then it basically just dissolved over a two year period afterwards.
Speaker:And then ended up in a, you know,
Speaker:being a single dad for since then.
Speaker:So I've been a single dad now for probably 15 years.
Speaker:Now, 14 years.
Speaker:because my eldest is now 18, my youngest is now 16.
Speaker:So, yeah, and I'm fortunate. They've got two really,
Speaker:really good boys. One's a man.
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I have been fortunate when it comes to that.
Speaker:But yeah, like the toll, the mental anguish,
Speaker:you know, I obviously...
Speaker:You know, his wife was really struggling because she was pregnant as well
Speaker:at the time. So, so her and I would bounce off each other a bit late at night,
Speaker:you know, because I wasn't sleeping and I knew she wasn't.
Speaker:So I'd just call her and just check in on her and just see how she's doing.
Speaker:And I think we just sort of were there for each other just to try
Speaker:and help each other and get through everything.
Speaker:She understood the pain that I was carrying,
Speaker:but I knew the pain she was carrying at the same time.
Speaker:and it's, it's unbelievable. Like I,
Speaker:I see his son now who is,
Speaker:he's 14, 15. and he's a spitting image of Dan.
Speaker:His mannerisms, everything. And I have to sit there and just go,
Speaker:wow, he is a, he is a mini Dan all over.
Speaker:look, at the same time, like I said,
Speaker:there was a lot I learned about myself as well.
Speaker:Through all of that, it highlighted a lot of things in my life as well.
Speaker:~ That needed attention at the same time.
Speaker:And that was lacking.
Speaker:how do you go through that? You're a policeman,
Speaker:you're invulnerable, you're in your 30s or late 20s,
Speaker:however old you were, and then suddenly that happens.
Speaker:I mean, that must put a real sense of mortality and also children,
Speaker:job, children, job. I mean, how do you start to balance something like that when
Speaker:it is so...
Speaker:As a copper, they're very fundamentally different in your,
Speaker:you you can't do both very easily.
Speaker:So how did you reconcile that?
Speaker:it's funny, like I was always gung-ho.
Speaker:Like I was always, you know, one of those if let's just say if the ship
Speaker:was hitting the fan, and we were having to go into a house really quick,
Speaker:I wanted to be one of the first ones going through.
Speaker:That's just how I dealt with everything.
Speaker:you know, okay, we're gonna drop to let's go,
Speaker:let's get it done. That's how I was.
Speaker:And
Speaker:Going back to work,
Speaker:I ended up off for about, I don't know,
Speaker:I can't remember, it might have been two or three months.
Speaker:My team that I worked with were really good,
Speaker:understood. You know, then when I went back to work,
Speaker:they put me with someone who had an understanding as well and actually
Speaker:was there when they told me.
Speaker:So he knew where I was at.
Speaker:~ So basically, I mean,
Speaker:I struggled, because we were obviously we're turning up to houses.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:And, you know, people hate the uniform when you're going to a house all the time.
Speaker:They hate the uniform. It's not you as a person that hate the uniform.
Speaker:And, you know, I just got I got sick of being called,
Speaker:you know, I'm not going to say what it was called because
Speaker:It's too derogative. But it was just it was used all the time.
Speaker:Right. And it got to a point where you just go,
Speaker:you know what, enough's enough.
Speaker:You know, I've just lost someone who should be here who was a great man.
Speaker:And you're a piece of shit.
Speaker:that are still here, still scumming off everyone,
Speaker:still breaking the law, still doing this,
Speaker:still doing that, rah rah rah,
Speaker:not even looking after your kids,
Speaker:not doing this, not doing that.
Speaker:You shouldn't be here. You don't deserve to be here.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And that's what was going through my head.
Speaker:And that was a struggle. ~ And one of my colleagues,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:the guy that was there when I got told,
Speaker:I remember this one job that we went to.
Speaker:And he'd obviously sense that I'd had enough.
Speaker:And this guy at the top of the stairs was just at it.
Speaker:And we were just trying to be nice,
Speaker:just trying to just deal with this job.
Speaker:Just go, look, you know, just if you leave them alone,
Speaker:leave them alone, it'll be all fine.
Speaker:Anyway, he came at it the wrong way.
Speaker:my work partner must've seen me.
Speaker:I was about to barrel up the stairs.
Speaker:and just throw him down the stairs.
Speaker:Like I'd had enough. And he grabbed me and goes,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:"Go to the car." "I'll come out to the car.
Speaker:Just go and sit in the car. I'll deal with this."
Speaker:So I know I hadn't even said anything.
Speaker:You know, I didn't say, right.
Speaker:that's it. You're gone. I didn't,
Speaker:I didn't say anything. And yeah.
Speaker:So I had to, I had to thank him afterwards because I knew what I was going to do.
Speaker:he basically saved my job on that day.
Speaker:So, yeah, so the toll was there.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:~ so, so that was when I initially went back.
Speaker:That's, that was the process that I was going through from a mental aspect,
Speaker:~ of being back in that job and after losing him.
Speaker:And then it wasn't till
Speaker:an incident happened, it was about
Speaker:13, 14 months later and I had a "Grub" in a stolen car tried
Speaker:to run me down and so
Speaker:the event happened and I actually can't recall a certain part
Speaker:of it and to this day I still can't so my brain went into safety mode
Speaker:and right you don't need to remember this and
Speaker:the people around thought that I was gone.
Speaker:They said all they saw was my reflective vest go in the air.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:They thought that I'd been hit and I was done.
Speaker:~ But I didn't get hit,
Speaker:but it must have been very close.
Speaker:~ But like I said,
Speaker:I don't remember. I don't remember jumping out of the air.
Speaker:I remember my partner firing a round off into the car while I was in the air.
Speaker:That's all I remember
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:The next bit I remember is turning around and seeing the car go through
Speaker:and then a police car chasing it through.
Speaker:~ But that was the moment where I went,
Speaker:what am I doing? I nearly put my boys in the same situation that Dan's son's in now.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:That was the moment where, where the scales
Speaker:had started to teeter. And yeah,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:I, was, that was a mental struggle.
Speaker:I ended up with, so I ended up leaving the police with PTSD.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:~ there was,
Speaker:you know, I tried to extend it.
Speaker:tried to push it out. You know,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:and even after this, actually,
Speaker:it was after, ~
Speaker:So I must have been 30.
Speaker:must've 34, 35. And then obviously I had
Speaker:my heart attack at 37. So I still stayed in
Speaker:the job and just kept trying to put one foot in front of the other,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:right? I can do this, I can keep beating this,
Speaker:I can do this and I can do this.
Speaker:Typical male.
Speaker:It just goes, right, I've got this,
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:right? And I just wanted to keep loading more bricks onto myself and going,
Speaker:I can still keep carrying these.
Speaker:Like, it's fine, just let me be.
Speaker:And I ended up gradually pushing people away and putting barriers up just
Speaker:to protect myself, to say to myself,
Speaker:I can still keep doing this. And I ended up in a training role.
Speaker:Got off the road, I needed a break from the road.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:I've got into a training role and I was good there for,
Speaker:~ look, maybe 12 months,
Speaker:18 months. And then one of my colleagues had said to me,
Speaker:look, he said, we just noticed that,
Speaker:you know, you've changed a bit.
Speaker:You're a bit up and down, things that are quite minor you're going off at,
Speaker:like you would never have done that before.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:He sort of said to me, look, you know,
Speaker:we don't know what's what's going on.
Speaker:you know, can we help you? Is there anything we can do for you?
Speaker:And at the same time, through all of that,
Speaker:even through that period, I was going through,
Speaker:you know, issues because I'd split with my ex partner
Speaker:and there was a lot that she had.
Speaker:Yeah, she had struggled with the split.
Speaker:And so I was dealing with a lot there as well while trying to keep
Speaker:the boys protected from everything as well.
Speaker:But I remember, you know,
Speaker:there'd just been some stuff going on at work.
Speaker:And I remember sitting in the boss's office and I went in and I confronted him.
Speaker:said, look, what's going on? Like,
Speaker:what's the issues? And I felt like I wanted to go across his desk and punch him.
Speaker:And anyway, we were at loggerheads.
Speaker:He was not going to back down.
Speaker:was just like, anyway, I went home that afternoon
Speaker:and I'm like sitting at home just going,
Speaker:what is going on with me? Like,
Speaker:this isn't me. This isn't how I would deal with things.
Speaker:This is not what I would do. I would never have dealt with a situation like that.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I said, right, I'll go into work tomorrow and I'll...
Speaker:go and apologise and fix it.
Speaker:Anyway, was unbelievable because...
Speaker:I've never experienced anything like it,
Speaker:but I walked into his office, sat down to have the conversation and I couldn't talk.
Speaker:And the next thing you know, ~ I tears streaming down
Speaker:my face and I couldn't even,
Speaker:I couldn't get a word out. I just could not verbalise anything.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I couldn't even say I'm sorry for yesterday and my behaviour.
Speaker:Nothing. I just couldn't get it out.
Speaker:everything had become too much and the body said once again,
Speaker:you know, enough's enough. And anyway,
Speaker:he just said to me, look, you've got to go home,
Speaker:you've got to go and take some time,
Speaker:you've got to go home, take some time,
Speaker:we'll work out where we go from here.
Speaker:And that effectively ended up being my last day in the uniform.
Speaker:Even when I look back on it now,
Speaker:it's definitely not how I would have liked to have ended the job.
Speaker:But at the same time, I wasn't listening to my body all the way through.
Speaker:My body was saying to me, look,
Speaker:you've had enough. You need a break.
Speaker:need to, you know, try, drop some of this weight,
Speaker:get some, get rid of some of this weight.
Speaker:You're carrying too much. Didn't listen.
Speaker:And this, this is what ends up happening.
Speaker:So. ~
Speaker:But that's a while ago now.
Speaker:See you again.
Speaker:Your body basically said Joe time to stop and heart attack and flatline,
Speaker:reset, restart, listen, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker:just summarise what happened there and then how you slowly worked your
Speaker:way through that.
Speaker:Oh, wow. I mean, look, I went through a whole phase,
Speaker:obviously, after that of like,
Speaker:Okay, who am I? What's going on?
Speaker:You know, what am I holding on to?
Speaker:What's affecting me? And I went through a massive,
Speaker:massive process. But once again,
Speaker:I don't know if you guys go through this in the UK that they love to hand
Speaker:out any depressants. And they wanted me to go on any depressants.
Speaker:I refused.
Speaker:I said no, because I was suicidal as well at the time.
Speaker:I was not in a good place. Yeah,
Speaker:I've only got my boys to thank me for coming through that the end of that,
Speaker:though they are my saviours out of this and that process in my life.
Speaker:And like once again,
Speaker:I just I refused to go down the Anti -depressant and drug route because
Speaker:I wanted to know what was helping me.
Speaker:I wanted to know what wasn't good for me.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:and then
Speaker:make some changes to my life as I was going through.
Speaker:I ended up cutting people who I thought,
Speaker:no, you're not who I need in my life right now.
Speaker:Yeah, anything that was, I got back into the gym,
Speaker:I started doing everything physical.
Speaker:started, I ended up doing PT for a little while.
Speaker:~ So I ended up going down route of rebuilding myself ~ over
Speaker:a period of time.
Speaker:that's the important bit. You didn't wallow,
Speaker:you realised you needed to do some surgery and what's wrong with me?
Speaker:So basically, talk to me through how you started to look at yourself from,
Speaker:let's stereotype, that unconscious,
Speaker:gung-ho Australian with a gun to who you are now.
Speaker:How did you become who you are now?
Speaker:let's just say the one of the hardest things that you can do is look
Speaker:in the mirror and look at yourself.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So that's where it started. But it also started at my,
Speaker:yeah. So there was a moment where my eldest boy who
Speaker:was in primary school at the time and
Speaker:And once again, yeah, when you're living through some of these things,
Speaker:you don't see it. You don't see what you're doing or how you're behaving and stuff.
Speaker:Like you were just putting one foot in front of the other.
Speaker:And so it was something that he said to me one night when they were going
Speaker:to bed and he said, he said, "Dad,
Speaker:why are you so angry?" He said,
Speaker:you know, he said it could be something small.
Speaker:Like, you know, as we're going to bed,
Speaker:can we go and get a glass of water before we go to bed?
Speaker:And he said, and you get a bit angry and I'm like,
Speaker:sort of.
Speaker:made me take a step back. I was like,
Speaker:wow, what, hold on, what am I doing?
Speaker:Like he's, because kids won't say things if they're not the truth,
Speaker:right? They're not going to make that stuff up.
Speaker:So that's what he's saying. And that,
Speaker:that made me start looking in the mirror.
Speaker:That one question from him. I mean,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:your kids, your kids are a great reflection of what you're doing in your life.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:and mine have been great for me.
Speaker:~ There was a lot of things that I needed to change and I wasn't impressed with
Speaker:the way that I was handling or doing things at the time.
Speaker:~ I was reckless at the time.
Speaker:Not around them, never around them.
Speaker:But when I didn't have the boys,
Speaker:far out I was reckless just because I didn't care.
Speaker:just had no thought for my own body or anything at the time either.
Speaker:Right. it was it was the reflection in the mirror.
Speaker:and take and being really hard and truth with myself.
Speaker:that's where it started.
Speaker:Yeah, that was, and then I went on the whole process of,
Speaker:okay, well, how do I fix these things?
Speaker:what perspective was I looking at different things?
Speaker:So, I mean, we talked about Dan previously and,
Speaker:~ so I was carrying guilt
Speaker:from that,
Speaker:It was around the fact that, know,
Speaker:if I wasn't talking to, kept saying this to myself.
Speaker:If I wasn't talking to him, would he still be here?
Speaker:Did I distract him? Did I do this?
Speaker:Did I, did I, what, what did I,
Speaker:what part did I play in this? And,
Speaker:and I was really, really struggling with it.
Speaker:And I said to myself one day, I'm like,
Speaker:you know what? I've got to flip the script on this.
Speaker:I've got to look at this from a different perspective because he's
Speaker:not here now anyway. So what do I think of this is not going to change anything.
Speaker:So I looked at everything and I went,
Speaker:you know what, if, if I wasn't talking to him,
Speaker:his wife would have been talking to him.
Speaker:And I'm glad it was me and not her.
Speaker:that I was like, okay, I'm happy to wear that.
Speaker:the other part to it as well was,
Speaker:I was actually glad that I got to hear the excitement in his voice
Speaker:in telling me that he was going to be a dad.
Speaker:I'm happy that this has happened and I'm the one that got to have that final
Speaker:conversation with him.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:think that is such an important thing because guilt will consume you
Speaker:if you don't face it and turn it around.
Speaker:And I think it's really important you didn't put spin on it,
Speaker:you didn't bullshit it, you didn't just pretend it,
Speaker:you had to find a way to live.
Speaker:You had to change your thought process otherwise who knows where it would have gone
Speaker:apart from downhill.
Speaker:and your kids and everything else.
Speaker:How did you manage to work through that?
Speaker:mean, you've explained, I was there rather than his wife.
Speaker:I had that conversation. But how did you manage to,
Speaker:let's say, convince yourself that that was going to work for you?
Speaker:I mean, when we go through trauma as well,
Speaker:we hold it in our body. ~ As much as it sounds a little woo woo.
Speaker:It's actually the truth. So pain,
Speaker:we hold it in different parts of our body.
Speaker:And it can be different events,
Speaker:and we will hold things differently.
Speaker:that's why I say, there's a weight that we're carrying.
Speaker:you know, someone who's carrying a weight in their heart,
Speaker:they've been hurt and they're still carrying that weight on their heart.
Speaker:That's why you don't see them smiling.
Speaker:You don't see them enjoying life and stuff like that.
Speaker:You can see it through their body.
Speaker:But we've got to physically remove that pain from your heart or from wherever
Speaker:and
Speaker:it is that you're holding it.
Speaker:~ you'd be amazed. mean, I went through some processes and,
Speaker:and, like freedom techniques and stuff like that to really get to the core of,
Speaker:what am I holding onto? And just letting it go and go,
Speaker:okay, I don't need this anymore.
Speaker:This isn't serving me anymore.
Speaker:it's time to let it go. What have I learned from it?
Speaker:You got to learn something from everything as well before you let
Speaker:it Otherwise it becomes pointless.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:And back it comes again. Yeah,
Speaker:but it's back again on the arse,
Speaker:isn't it?
Speaker:if something happens in your life and you don't deal with it and
Speaker:you don't learn from it, that there's a cycle that always happens.
Speaker:And that cycle will always come back again and be right in front of your face.
Speaker:And if you don't deal with it again,
Speaker:it will come back around again.
Speaker:It's amazing. But we've got to grow,
Speaker:there. ~
Speaker:we always got to continue to grow.
Speaker:Right? If we're not growing, then we're just stagnant.
Speaker:And, you know, look, look at stagnant water,
Speaker:what happens to stagnant water?
Speaker:Yeah, sits there and goes, yuck,
Speaker:right, and becomes disease ridden.
Speaker:So we can become the same, if we're not careful.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Tell
Speaker:me about what you do in the mirror,
Speaker:because this routine, think, is absolutely beautiful.
Speaker:~ And then I will tell you my experience of it after.
Speaker:Okay, so you're talking about what I personally try and do with people that
Speaker:I work with, or you're talking about what I personally do myself.
Speaker:Well, a bit of both. Start with how you found that process or you worked
Speaker:out a way of doing it. I mean,
Speaker:you spoke earlier about the mirror and how important that is.
Speaker:So kind of that and then bring in what you do with guys and things like that
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:Yeah. So obviously looking at yourself in the mirror is one of the hardest things
Speaker:to do because you are always your harshest critic.
Speaker:Right? It doesn't matter what anyone else says.
Speaker:You will be harsher on yourself than anyone else ever will be.
Speaker:It's just the way we are.
Speaker:So to rip the bandaid off.
Speaker:and look at yourself, look at yourself really in the mirror and
Speaker:be completely honest with who you see and what you're seeing right at that time.
Speaker:That tears everything down. That tears all of that facade the whole lot.
Speaker:and you probably know you're just freaking hard,
Speaker:right? And, and, but you've got to do it.
Speaker:If you don't,
Speaker:If you're in a in your life or your life's not going the way that you want,
Speaker:go and really, really take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror
Speaker:and be honest with yourself.
Speaker:yeah, it was hard, but I forced myself because I was like,
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I'm, I'm look, I'm also a very stubborn personality.
Speaker:if I want to change things, I'm going to do it,
Speaker:which is why I didn't want medication.
Speaker:Didn't want any of that. Don't numb me.
Speaker:I want to know what works. So I forced myself to be in front of that mirror
Speaker:as hard as it was. And I had a notebook there and I would write.
Speaker:That's the only way to do it because that right there and then that
Speaker:is when you're being honest with yourself.
Speaker:And then you can go and look over and go,
Speaker:wow, right. Where do I start? What do I change first?
Speaker:Start with the smallest thing.
Speaker:Change that, but turn it into a positive and then start working through your list.
Speaker:But then in a week's time, go and stand in front of the mirror again.
Speaker:Do it again.
Speaker:It's the only way to strip it all back.
Speaker:I stripped myself back. I stripped my life back and went,
Speaker:where do I start? Where do I start rebuilding?
Speaker:I want a good solid base and I want that to be my,
Speaker:that's my starting point. So that's what I did.
Speaker:So in regards to,
Speaker:you know, people that I work with,
Speaker:it's the one thing that I get them to do and it is the most uncomfortable thing
Speaker:and I get them to do it right at the start because they're not expecting it.
Speaker:Right? And it's the most confronting thing.
Speaker:You want me to what? Stand in front of that mirror and I want you to tell
Speaker:me what you see. And I note it down right at the start.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Right? And some of them don't even say anything.
Speaker:I can see it in their face when they first look at the mirror.
Speaker:Some of them are already emotional when they're looking in
Speaker:the mirror because they've never done it.
Speaker:They've never looked at themselves.
Speaker:It gives a shit about anyone else around.
Speaker:It's how you look at yourself that matters the most.
Speaker:And if you can't live with yourself,
Speaker:how are you expected to live with other people and be the best version
Speaker:.
Speaker:for other people? That's how I look at it.
Speaker:Right. So the mirror for me is huge.
Speaker:It's a massive, massive piece of,
Speaker:you know, being brutally honest with yourself.
Speaker:But yeah, you'd be amazed. I mean,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:you know, you've been through it.
Speaker:I'd love to hear your side to what you went through.
Speaker:Hamish on the spot. I find it hard.
Speaker:I still find it hard. ~ I'm pretty sure the first time I did it was when
Speaker:I was in rehab and it was just look at this person,
Speaker:few days sober and...
Speaker:there's just this site of just shame and horror and embarrassment
Speaker:and all that kind of stuff. And it was really,
Speaker:it was hard. was terrifying to see how I'd let myself physically slip
Speaker:and emotionally and everything else.
Speaker:~ I mean,
Speaker:it's still hard now to look at me and say,
Speaker:God, I haven't had a shave. Look at the bags under my eyes,
Speaker:know, all this, the physical things.
Speaker:And then it comes to the personal and then it's just like,
Speaker:That's me. And I can sometimes say I love you,
Speaker:Hamish, in the mirror. That's hard.
Speaker:Often it is ~ quick glimpse,
Speaker:you off I go. Often it's that.
Speaker:It's just like walk past the mirror with my eyes closed.
Speaker:It is hard. ~ But it has also been quite amazing to just go,
Speaker:that's not working. As you said,
Speaker:that's not working. What am I going to change?
Speaker:I haven't tried with a notepad.
Speaker:I will do that this afternoon after this conversation,
Speaker:but it is uncomfortable.
Speaker:I'd love to hear
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:your feedback from doing that actually.
Speaker:But I'm telling you now, if you're finding it hard to even as it is just walk past
Speaker:a mirror and quickly go, then you are going to stand in front
Speaker:of a mirror and really, and this is a lot of the time,
Speaker:it's not even about looking at your features.
Speaker:It's about staring yourself dead in the eyes in that reflection
Speaker:and saying to yourself, okay, who do I see right now?
Speaker:Who is that that's staring back at me right now?
Speaker:Because the surface stuff is one thing.
Speaker:When you look into your own soul through your eyes,
Speaker:that tells a whole other story.
Speaker:Yeah, I tell you what, as you're saying that,
Speaker:I'm also thinking, I'm also looking in that mirror and going,
Speaker:"I'm really proud of you. You've overcome alcohol.
Speaker:You've overcome this." So there's two stories going on.
Speaker:There's one current me and one there's the old me.
Speaker:And I'm not just spinning this.
Speaker:It really is. I am proud of what I'm doing.
Speaker:I am proud of this. This Hamish ,who is completely different to seven years ago.
Speaker:So there's, am I allowed to do that?
Speaker:I guess I am are'nt I
Speaker:Of course you are.
Speaker:Because you've to think about your journey that you've taken and
Speaker:the steps that you've taken so far.
Speaker:Right? You have to be proud of that.
Speaker:Because it doesn't, like I said,
Speaker:it doesn't matter what other people think.
Speaker:Right? Everyone else could be proud of you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But if you're not proud of you taking the steps and becoming where you are,
Speaker:Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Speaker:that doesn't mean shit.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:So you have
Speaker:to be, this is the whole thing.
Speaker:When you deserve praise for yourself,
Speaker:you've got to give it, right? As much as we are our harshest critic.
Speaker:But when you've done something and you know that you've come out of that and you've,
Speaker:yeah, like, yeah, it's, I mean,
Speaker:look, I was, I was right at the depths,
Speaker:right? At a certain point.
Speaker:I had everything set out. I was not going to be here the next morning.
Speaker:And I had ~ a photo of both of my boys that was on the wall
Speaker:and it was strategically put there so I could see it from so many different angles
Speaker:of where I was living. And
Speaker:They were the only reason why I didn't.
Speaker:And I said to myself, right, if I get through tonight,
Speaker:then this is not happening and things are changing and I'm going to go
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:on and do different things and do better things than I've ever done before.
Speaker:Policing was one thing, but I need to go and do something bigger and better than me.
Speaker:And that's what started me on my journey because I made it through that night.
Speaker:And if it wasn't for that photo and thinking to myself,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:okay, look, I could go and do this.
Speaker:but this is going to hurt them way more.
Speaker:And this will stick with them for so much longer and affect their lives
Speaker:so much more. Why would I want to do that to them?
Speaker:That's why I made it through that.
Speaker:So honesty with yourself is the biggest factor,
Speaker:but so many people can't be honest with themselves.
Speaker:So that's why I say be proud of the positive things that you've done
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:in your life and really stand there and acknowledge it.
Speaker:Go, you know what? I'm fucking proud of myself.
Speaker:I was this, now look at me. Okay,
Speaker:I've aged a bit, so what?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know what I mean? I
Speaker:mean, I'm 50 this year. So,
Speaker:you know, I can't hide my age.
Speaker:It's just what it is. So, you know,
Speaker:you've got to you've got to take those steps with it.
Speaker:But you've also got to go, you know what,
Speaker:I've come so far from where I was.
Speaker:So you have to, you have to take that on.
Speaker:Don't fight with that. Cause it sounds to me like you're sort of fighting with
Speaker:it a little bit as well.
Speaker:Yeah, sometimes. ~ One thing I really picked up from that,
Speaker:what you said and several other people I've spoken to said,
Speaker:you did it for your kids.
Speaker:I went to rehab for my relationship.
Speaker:Other people in rehab went to rehab for their partners,
Speaker:for their business and things like that.
Speaker:A lot of people say you've got to do it for yourself first.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You're proof that you didn't. You couldn't do it for you.
Speaker:You did it for your kids. think...
Speaker:change in desperation, you don't have to do it for yourself.
Speaker:You end up doing it for yourself,
Speaker:but I think you have, even if it is for somebody else,
Speaker:I think that is really, really important.
Speaker:why were your children so important?
Speaker:What made them the reason that you didn't commit suicide,
Speaker:you didn't go off the rails, you didn't just fall apart?
Speaker:How did you as a father manage to put them as your focus?
Speaker:Why did you put them as your focus?
Speaker:Okay, so look, my ex partner, little irrational,
Speaker:up and down all over the place.
Speaker:And she definitely was through that period of time then as well.
Speaker:~ And her family, same thing.
Speaker:And I said to myself, if I'm not here,
Speaker:what role models are they going to have growing up in life?
Speaker:And where are they going to end up?
Speaker:And that was the turning point for me.
Speaker:So everything that I did from there on in was about being a role model for them.
Speaker:Those two boys.
Speaker:I have made sure that I have been the best role model that I could be for them.
Speaker:But in saying that, right, so we,
Speaker:lot of fathers, know, all parents,
Speaker:want to protect our kids from everything,
Speaker:you know, there's bad going on in the world and I know we need to protect them from
Speaker:it and we need to do this and we need to do that.
Speaker:I did that.
Speaker:And it actually became a burden because when I stopped being a cop,
Speaker:yeah, they loved the fact that I was a cop.
Speaker:You know, I was like Superman in their eyes.
Speaker:Like they're, still young. you're like,
Speaker:yeah, dad's untouchable. You know,
Speaker:he wears a cape. does this. He goes to catch his bag guys and does all that sort
Speaker:of thing. And you know, that's every kid's pretty much the same way.
Speaker:So when I had been let go with PTSD,
Speaker:I was still battling.
Speaker:saying anything to them about it.
Speaker:So they didn't even know that I wasn't a cop anymore for a period of time.
Speaker:And my son was doing a project
Speaker:~ in regards to dogs and how useful dogs are to humans and in
Speaker:all these different ways. And he brought up that they use service dogs
Speaker:for the military for who have PTSD.
Speaker:And
Speaker:Anyway, that we were having a conversation about it.
Speaker:And he said to me, he said, Dad,
Speaker:do you have PTSD?
Speaker:So I'd still hidden everything from them.
Speaker:They didn't know any of this. And I went,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:you know what? I think it's time to have a proper honest conversation.
Speaker:so that was something I was caring because I was trying to hide it from them.
Speaker:I didn't want them to know. Right.
Speaker:It was a shame thing for me as well for them.
Speaker:And I said, okay, you know what,
Speaker:it was time to have this conversation.
Speaker:So I got the youngest fellow out as well.
Speaker:We sat down, they were both in primary school.
Speaker:And I said, look, this is what I've gone through.
Speaker:These are the events. I told them about the event that I've gone through
Speaker:and everything. And I said, and it's just,
Speaker:you know, unfortunately, this is what's happened and that I'm not
Speaker:a police officer anymore and stuff like that.
Speaker:Mate, can I say the weight that came off me in that conversation?
Speaker:was unbelievable. Like, I felt like I could breathe again.
Speaker:And you know what? The boys never looked at me at any point with shame
Speaker:or disgust or,
Speaker:oh my God, you know, there was none of that.
Speaker:They both got up, gave me a hug and said,
Speaker:are you okay? And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker:well, I'm here. I'm sort of doing this.
Speaker:I'm, we're, you know, everything is good.
Speaker:But it made me then also change the way that I deal with parenting with them.
Speaker:I did not want to protect them from what's going on in the world.
Speaker:And I wanted them to understand that bad things are going to happen in the world.
Speaker:Bad things will happen in your life,
Speaker:negatives, you're going to go through ups and downs,
Speaker:but it's how you bounce back from them.
Speaker:and I'll use my, surgery as a,
Speaker:perfect point for that scenario.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:So the night before I was going in for surgery,
Speaker:~ both the boys come up at the hospital and come and saw me.
Speaker:And, you know, I'm already completely shaved down and,
Speaker:you know, I've only got a gown on and I've got stuff hanging out
Speaker:of me because they've prepped me for,
Speaker:because I'm first up the next morning.
Speaker:It was pretty confronting for them.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:they, yeah, come and give me a hug.
Speaker:said, you know, you'll have to go now.
Speaker:Give me a hug. And my youngest one just broke.
Speaker:And I was like, holy shit, you know,
Speaker:like, okay, what do I do here?
Speaker:And I know I set them both down.
Speaker:And I said, look, I said, right now,
Speaker:~
Speaker:I understand that this is really hard for you to see and hard for
Speaker:you to understand what's going on.
Speaker:But I want you to take a mental picture of what you see now.
Speaker:And you're going to see the worst of me,
Speaker:the lowest point of me over probably the next two months,
Speaker:three months after the surgery.
Speaker:said, but that's not the bit I want you to take notice of.
Speaker:The bit I want you to take notice of is how I bounce back.
Speaker:Because that's what you need to do in life.
Speaker:So I turned it into a life lesson for him and they have watched
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:me after surgery just come back and just,
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:right, okay, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker:What am I doing? You know, like making sure that everything is moving along
Speaker:and I'm back in the gym and I'm doing what I can.
Speaker:And yeah, like there's, don't,
Speaker:I don't put a limit on myself.
Speaker:So I needed them to see that,
Speaker:to understand that. Yep.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:things are gonna happen, Hedy bounce back.
Speaker:That's the biggest takeaway I can give them.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:So, I think we need to, I think from a parenting perspective,
Speaker:know, like even dads, like dads are very,
Speaker:obviously very stoic, especially here as well.
Speaker:~ Yeah, we were very much like,
Speaker:everything's okay, everything's okay,
Speaker:everything's okay. Kids need to see that things aren't always okay,
Speaker:right? Because then they go through growing up.
Speaker:and then going into adulthood,
Speaker:well, hold on, there's no problems.
Speaker:Everything's okay, but it's not the case.
Speaker:~ So they need to understand what hardship is and they need to understand what going
Speaker:through a difficult patch looks like,
Speaker:but to know that they can still come out the other side as long
Speaker:as you're there supportive of them.
Speaker:And that's what we need to focus on.
Speaker:I'd love to see some cycles get broken from the old parenting style.
Speaker:I mean, you know, with parenting style back when I was growing up was very,
Speaker:different to now. ~ You know,
Speaker:Hmm
Speaker:but I remember, I remember saying to my dad,
Speaker:you know, that
Speaker:sitting at the other end of the table from him and I had my young fellows
Speaker:by that stage and I just remember sitting there saying to him,
Speaker:my boys aren't going to go through what I went through so I'm going
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:to have a different relationship to my boys than what I did with you.
Speaker:And he just sort of sat there and shook his head at me nodded his head.
Speaker:It's like, okay. Yeah, at the same time,
Speaker:I don't begrudge him.
Speaker:No. No.
Speaker:He never had a role model. He never
Speaker:had a role model when he was growing up.
Speaker:So he never knew how to be a father to his own kids because he never
Speaker:had a role model around. So I don't begrudge him,
Speaker:but I just knew that, okay, this is not how I would want to be.
Speaker:This is not the relationship I want with my father.
Speaker:So I'm gonna make sure that I have a better relationship with my boys.
Speaker:And that's where the cycle stops.
Speaker:As you said, that's what it was.
Speaker:You your father, my father brought you and me up,
Speaker:brought us up with the values and the experience he had from his father.
Speaker:And back it goes, you you're 50,
Speaker:so your dad was born late after,
Speaker:sometime after the war, very early 50s maybe.
Speaker:Post-war, they had all of that.
Speaker:Their parents went through all of that.
Speaker:So that's what they got brought up with.
Speaker:Same with me. That's what my dad's story was.
Speaker:My grandfather's story was
Speaker:was different. He was born in 1918,
Speaker:so he had that early times of the affluent 1920s and then everything changed.
Speaker:They brought us up the best they could,
Speaker:exactly as you said, but just different eras,
Speaker:different priorities. Yeah,
Speaker:so drawing that line in the sand is so important,
Speaker:isn't it? And doing it differently.
Speaker:And by the sounds of it, you're not going...
Speaker:You're not helicoptering your kids,
Speaker:which is a common thing to make everything all right.
Speaker:Nah.
Speaker:As you said, it's all going to be fine,
Speaker:darling. It's all going to be okay.
Speaker:And then, yeah.
Speaker:~
Speaker:yeah, that does my head in. Honestly,
Speaker:I see it around and, you know,
Speaker:the one thing that...
Speaker:Probably the one thing that I learned from my dad was the mistakes that he made.
Speaker:Right? And even in parenting, I say that the same way.
Speaker:Because it made me look at everything and go,
Speaker:right, okay, would I do that the same way?
Speaker:No, wouldn't. Okay, so I'm gonna do it this way.
Speaker:And our kids also need to learn from their mistakes.
Speaker:They're not perfect.
Speaker:We were never perfect when we were growing up,
Speaker:but we expect to be just, you know,
Speaker:hovering around and protecting our kids.
Speaker:And, you know, there's no consequences to their actions and,
Speaker:"No, little Johnny would never do that." I'm,
Speaker:sorry. I've seen it. You know,
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:you're not going to knock on the door.
Speaker:~ look, his little Johnny here,
Speaker:you know, he's in trouble again.
Speaker:He got into a fight down the road there and he stole some kid's bike.
Speaker:"Little Johnny would never do that."
Speaker:Well, I'm sorry, but here's the footage.
Speaker:"That can't be little Johnny." And it didn't matter.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Like you would be arguing black and blue.
Speaker:They still couldn't believe it and we're still trying to protect it.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:It's like, you know what? kids need to have consequences to their actions.
Speaker:If they're not learning from their mistakes,
Speaker:then they're never going to learn at all.
Speaker:So yeah, I've said to both of mine,
Speaker:you know, like, Hey, I'm here for you.
Speaker:But my biggest thing is if you
Speaker:then you own it. You make a mistake,
Speaker:you own it. Deal with the consequences,
Speaker:learn from it and move on.
Speaker:And both of mine are pretty honest.
Speaker:They put their hand up and go,
Speaker:yeah, that was me. Sometimes I go,
Speaker:geez, not again.
Speaker:11th commandment
Speaker:boys, thou shalt not get caught.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You
Speaker:it's your typical you know the boys being boys and you know boys push
Speaker:the boundaries when they get a little restless and stuff like that I mean I've been
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:fortunate both of mine played you know a lot of sport so I played rugby
Speaker:and rugby league and the youngest one played AFL
Speaker:then rugby union and then would play rugby league for school and then would play
Speaker:rugby league ~ for club on top of that
Speaker:So it's good because it creates those bonds and everything as well,
Speaker:but keeps him out of trouble.
Speaker:So I've been fortunate.
Speaker:You've said you've worked with guys.
Speaker:Tell me a bit more about that because this is one of the reasons I got you on here.
Speaker:But tell me why
Speaker:work is so important to you and what you bring to people you work
Speaker:with everything that I've gone through,
Speaker:it made me take a look at myself,
Speaker:but it also made me look around and,
Speaker:guys are carrying so much these days,
Speaker:right? There's so much pressure.
Speaker:And I know, and unfortunately we've got a feminine masculine
Speaker:and unfortunately there's a lot of toxic masculinity that gets spoken about as well.
Speaker:And I think that's unfoundly tainted on a lot of men.
Speaker:~ And so I feel like men are just sort of become quite lost.
Speaker:even from an identity perspective these days,
Speaker:~ I talked to obviously my young fellows as well and they got an all boys school
Speaker:and they've even spoken about,
Speaker:you know, the way that some of them talk and they just feel like everyone's
Speaker:a bit lost, don't know who they're supposed to be.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:~ But obviously from my perspective,
Speaker:working with men more, I love working with fathers because I want
Speaker:to see that connection. I want to see them build the connection with their kids.
Speaker:And they're not going to do it until they start to deal with themselves.
Speaker:So unfortunately we've got this thing where everyone wants to look outside.
Speaker:Everywhere outside is a problem.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:but until we start looking here and start dropping the things that we don't need
Speaker:to be carrying anymore we're never gonna see a positive change.
Speaker:And I believe, I strongly believe that if we have better men,
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:we create better fathers, we have a better world.
Speaker:Because men who are more in control and more certain
Speaker:and know who they are will stand by their moral ground.
Speaker:Now men are natural protectors and that is our role in the world.
Speaker:So, but we also need to be thinking clearly and unfortunately when you're carrying
Speaker:so much, your head feels like you're in a cyclone,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:So your head's in the middle of a cyclone because you've got all this stuff going
Speaker:around in your head. There's not until you start getting rid of some stuff that
Speaker:you can actually think clearly.
Speaker:And anyone who's not in a good state will make bad choices.
Speaker:Anything that does that anyone that makes a decision in a panic makes
Speaker:a bad choice or bad decision. So we've got to start.
Speaker:I believe the world doesn't get better.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:until men get better. And it starts with offloading some of this weight,
Speaker:reconnecting, reconnecting with their kids
Speaker:in a proper way and reconnecting with their partners.
Speaker:instead of coming from a world of hurt.
Speaker:So, like I believe that we
Speaker:can change the way that things have been done and...
Speaker:Men.
Speaker:coming from a calm place. So.
Speaker:I had a conversation with a mate of mine recently and he's got two kids as well.
Speaker:And this came up and I said to him,
Speaker:I said, the problem that I see is if the fathers aren't around to be
Speaker:the role model and help their kids grow,
Speaker:who is?
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:school, government, social media or their peers
Speaker:who could be anyone for all we know,
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:right? They fall into a bad group.
Speaker:The next thing you know, your kid is heading down a bad trajectory.
Speaker:So it starts with the family unit.
Speaker:The male needs to step up and be that man for the family unit.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:For me, that's where everything starts and it grows.
Speaker:So I just want, I want to see men be happier.
Speaker:I can't tell you, I've put social media stuff out there.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:Some of the comments that I'm from men who were like,
Speaker:I'm done. I can't do this anymore.
Speaker:I've got a wife. I've got three adult kids.
Speaker:I've got this, I've got this, but I don't want to be here.
Speaker:It's like, my brother, you've got to drop some of this weight.
Speaker:Mm. Yeah.
Speaker:Like have a conversation. It starts with a conversation.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:Let's, let's do this. The men are too scared to reach out still.
Speaker:Like this is, it's unbelievable.
Speaker:They've even said it and that was just on watching a video.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:They're saying the exact problem that they're having,
Speaker:but won't reach out. I can't force it.
Speaker:Hmm, nope.
Speaker:I'm not going to force it. They're going to want it.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So that's why I do it.
Speaker:understand why we do it. I that was my story.
Speaker:I came down to two choices before I realised that if I don't ask for help it's
Speaker:all going to be all over.
Speaker:It's tragic. mean, there's a whole other conversation here.
Speaker:We could go down that route another time for sure,
Speaker:but it's...
Speaker:It's the scariest thing in the world to ask for help until you've done it.
Speaker:Then it's just like, fxxk, that was easy.
Speaker:It's so easy once you've done it,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:but to get to that point is so hard.
Speaker:You
Speaker:know why that is. Our pride gets in the way.
Speaker:That's all it is. And then I think deep down as well,
Speaker:men who then do get help or ask for help feel like they've failed as a man.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:which is still pride.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:So it's unfortunate. My pride got in the way for a long time.
Speaker:but then I just refuse to be beaten at the same time.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:And that's the mentality that I want to change.
Speaker:Right? Your pride's telling you one thing,
Speaker:but it's telling you the wrong thing.
Speaker:So you need to turn around and say,
Speaker:right, I refuse to be beaten. I'm going to get through this and how do I do it?
Speaker:And what's the best way to do it?
Speaker:Who do I need to talk to? The problem is I've been there.
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:I've walked so many things, I've seen
Speaker:so many things in life, I've seen how it affects so many different people.
Speaker:And I just, don't want to see,
Speaker:I don't want to see men going through this anymore.
Speaker:I don't want to see families getting torn apart because of it,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:because that's what's happening.
Speaker:I see that so much.
Speaker:and as you're saying that, I'm wondering whether you are helping
Speaker:the next generation by showing these fathers,
Speaker:encouraging them, maybe they are sowing the seeds to their kids,
Speaker:the men of the next generation,
Speaker:that, yeah, it's okay to ask for help,
Speaker:it's okay to be accountable, and maybe it's just sowing those seeds down
Speaker:the generation for them to start making difference,
Speaker:you know?
Speaker:You and I are very different to our parents,
Speaker:very different to their parents.
Speaker:Your kids, I guess, are very different to you.
Speaker:So maybe that's part of the process.
Speaker:But look, I'm hoping.
Speaker:My goal is to leave a legacy. What that looks like right now,
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:but I'm hoping it's a good one.
Speaker:And funnily enough, mean,
Speaker:because, so my oldest boy just finished high school just the end of last year.
Speaker:He started uni now they have him write the parents a letter for their last
Speaker:day and they hand it to you at a,
Speaker:like in a ceremony and everything.
Speaker:And his his letter to me blew me away.
Speaker:And he's not a very good like he's not he's not very emotional sort
Speaker:of kid or anything either. ~ But at the end of it,
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:basically, he had just said, you know,
Speaker:I can't express how much you've taught me through going through everything that
Speaker:you have, and showing me how strong you can be while going through everything that
Speaker:you have.
Speaker:but also I wouldn't have asked for a better dad to learn from.
Speaker:And I can't wait to see the impact that you have on everyone else that you're
Speaker:looking to work with. That was how he left it.
Speaker:And I was like, ~ my God.
Speaker:Mm-hmm Wow
Speaker:Right. So I actually had to take a bit of a seat there.
Speaker:I got, I got emotional, right?
Speaker:Cause it
Speaker:I mean, as much as we're we're open and honest with each other,
Speaker:you don't usually get that emotional side of things,
Speaker:right? And but yeah,
Speaker:I was like, ~ wow. So I mean, they're watching everything they're taking
Speaker:in everything, and they're absorbing everything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, you know, like, yeah,
Speaker:I love them. Love them to death.
Speaker:So yeah, I just want I'd love to see ~
Speaker:you know, everyone just feeling more connected.
Speaker:Like, you know, we talk about that,
Speaker:you know, we've got social media and everyone's supposed to be,
Speaker:you know, more connected than ever,
Speaker:which is bullshit. We've become more disconnected than ever.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:And the devices, unfortunately,
Speaker:have gotten in the way. So, you know,
Speaker:I used to take my boys to the park when they were young.
Speaker:and I'd go and spend some time with them.
Speaker:And I'd say, look, just give me the first little bit.
Speaker:I'm going to sit down. I'm going to have a coffee.
Speaker:You guys go and do whatever you want to do and just let me finish my coffee
Speaker:and then I'll come out. So I'd sit there and have my coffee and I'd look around
Speaker:and so many parents sitting there on their phones.
Speaker:Mm.
Speaker:and
Speaker:kids yelling out for them, dad,
Speaker:mom, dad, mom, you know, like,
Speaker:hey, they don't even hear them.
Speaker:Right. Used to annoy the shit out of me because I leave my phone in
Speaker:the car because I didn't want the distraction.
Speaker:I was there with them. So I would finish my coffee and then I was in
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:the park with them, chased them around,
Speaker:doing whatever.
Speaker:And that's how we did it every time.
Speaker:and
Speaker:My phone stayed in the car. And that's what we need.
Speaker:yeah, I just, I just, I'd love to see,
Speaker:you know, families actually being able to sit and have a raw open
Speaker:on honest conversation about different things.
Speaker:And I don't want to see this woman against man thing.
Speaker:I mean, that'll never go away.
Speaker:Unfortunately, I can't see that happening.
Speaker:but I see it a lot,
Speaker:~ as well. So,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and that's tearing families apart.
Speaker:Joe,
Speaker:you've got a mission. You've got a wonderful mission and I,
Speaker:I just feel the passion. I hear the passion in what you're doing and that.
Speaker:that responsibility you put on yourself.
Speaker:You You want to help guys to really change and if you could shake every single
Speaker:one of them, I think you'd be shaking them,
Speaker:wouldn't you? If you could get away with,
Speaker:good.
Speaker:stop being an arse and look after your kids,
Speaker:look after yourself.
Speaker:Yeah, I look massively. Yeah, massively,
Speaker:I'd want to do that. ~
Speaker:massively. Sometimes I think people need a shake or slap in the face.
Speaker:Because sometimes they just don't see what they're doing.
Speaker:Yeah. ~
Speaker:And they're not hurting themselves.
Speaker:They're hurting their kids. So yeah,
Speaker:I
Speaker:I look, there's a big goal for me and I love to get to a point where I can,
Speaker:you know, create retreats for dads and their kids
Speaker:and actually put them through processes where,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you know, they can actually sit across from each other and be raw
Speaker:and honest with each other and actually tell them how they feel about each other
Speaker:Hmm.
Speaker:and why. That for me,
Speaker:That's so wholesome. And just to see a connection rebuild for me would be enough.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:But I love to be able to do that and do a retreat and get them all away
Speaker:and just dads and their kids. Go right.
Speaker:This is what we're doing. You're all in.
Speaker:Technology stays away. This is about you and your kids.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I want you to learn something from this and then take that home with you.
Speaker:So I would love to do that. I'd love to do that all the way around the world
Speaker:to be honest.
Speaker:Yeah, well, it's only a dream,
Speaker:it's only a wish, it's only something to do.
Speaker:Let's regroup in six months time and see how you're getting on.
Speaker:can really see you creating that because
Speaker:Yeah
Speaker:the passion and determination and the fact that you've had how many operations
Speaker:and how many, know, it's ticking away,
Speaker:it's still going, you your purpose isn't finished.
Speaker:No, that's right. I'm not meant to go yet.
Speaker:That's why keep telling myself I've still got something I've to do here.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. Brilliant, Joe. Well, thank you for everything.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Tell me a little bit where people can find you,
Speaker:find out more about you, and follow you,
Speaker:and all that kind of stuff. Because,
Speaker:there's a big voice there.
Speaker:Yeah, so I've,
Speaker:so I have ~ a website, it's called lead dont blame.com.
Speaker:And I have social media, obviously,
Speaker:as well, which is Joe Henderson,
Speaker:~ YouTube, tik tok,
Speaker:Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker:so that you can reach me anywhere there.
Speaker:More than have a conversation,
Speaker:see where we can try and help,
Speaker:or I can try and help you in any way and then go from there.
Speaker:yeah, I'd love to hear how your mirror story goes afterwards.
Speaker:I'll send you a video of it in a couple of days time.
Speaker:Damn it! Why did you have to bring that back?
Speaker:No. ~
Speaker:We were wrapping it up so nicely.
Speaker:I couldn't help myself.
Speaker:No, I will report back to you with my notebook.
Speaker:Yeah. fab.
Speaker:Hmm I feel safe now for those of you listening.
Speaker:I've now pulled my hood over my head.
Speaker:Yeah
Speaker:so funny. I'm sorry.
Speaker:~ Joe,
Speaker:all good. No, no, no. Hey, if I'm talking about these things,
Speaker:I've got to play along as well.
Speaker:I've got to be truthful to it all.
Speaker:So all good. Yeah.
Speaker:Joe, thank you so much for being on the show today.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I really, really appreciate it.
Speaker:I look at appreciate being on here and hopefully we can just keep making some
Speaker:positive change with all the talk and everything that we need to do.
Speaker:Absolutely, yeah. Well everybody,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:there is another episode of the Brave Man project and this was a really good one.
Speaker:I had a great conversation and I've been challenged to do something and
Speaker:I will put that on social media and I'll make sure Joe knows about it.
Speaker:So yeah, there we are. If you liked what you heard,
Speaker:if you liked what you saw, please share it.
Speaker:Please tell other people about it because these are really important conversations,
Speaker:not just for us,
Speaker:going on ahead. So yeah, thank you ever so much everyone for listening.
Speaker:Really appreciate it.
